# How much of China's rise is fabricated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033 "2015-06-09T01:51:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/41 "2015-06-10T05:36:28Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Are they paying the full cost for our teoops for the full time they have been there? No. But they’re not getting the full value of the troops either. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/42 "2015-06-10T05:45:59Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > (Western) Europe has been living beyond its means since 1945 when the USA guaranteed its security. Had there been no USA or had the USA returned to isolationism Social Democracy in the West would have been much more expensive as Europe would have had to pay for its own defense. Its ironic how many Europeans chide the USA for its inferior social safety net. But, on the whole, the world is better for it. This theory is problematic for a variety of reasons: 1. In one very significant area of social welfare policy-namely healthcare-the US spends a far higher percentage of GDP than any European country (or any other developed liberal democracy for that matter) in addition to our higher spending as percentage of GDP on defence. 2. Many of the best features of European social market economies come from their alternative Bismarckian corporatist model of State-Labour-Business cooperation and regulations such as paid parental leave, vacations etc., the spending costs of which are minimal. 3. Government spending as percentage of GDP is higher in most European countries ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government\_spending#International\_government\_spending](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending#International_government_spending)) with the US at 41.6% as opposed to Germany at 45.4%, the UK at 48.5%, and France at 56.1%. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/43 "2015-06-10T05:59:59Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > This theory is problematic for a variety of reasons: > > 1. In one very significant area of social welfare policy-namely healthcare-the US spends a far higher percentage of GDP than any European country (or any other developed liberal democracy for that matter) in addition to our higher spending as percentage of GDP on defence. > 2. Many of the best features of European social market economies come from their alternative Bismarckian corporatist model of State-Labour-Business cooperation and regulations such as paid parental leave, vacations etc., the spending costs of which are minimal. > 3. Government spending as percentage of GDP is higher in most European countries ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government\_spending#International\_government\_spending](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending#International_government_spending)) with the US at 41.6% as opposed to Germany at 45.4%, the UK at 48.5%, and France at 56.1%. But could this model have been born had the cost of facing down the Soviets been born from the onset? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/44 "2015-06-10T06:05:42Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > But could this model have been born had the cost of facing down the Soviets been born from the onset? Well, technically, they did bear the cost of facing down the Soviets from the onset. The US was on the Soviet side then. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/45 "2015-06-10T06:46:27Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > Right so this is the 1990s/early 2000s we are talking about here. Would you say even then China was noticeably poorer? Because from what I’ve heard China was almost Africa poor in the 80s and suddenly middle income/a large middle class starting in the 90s, but I wonder how much of that is exaggerated again. Absolutely. I mean, my little city got noticeably more developed in the mere two years I was there. My uncles visited that part of China in the 2000s, and they were stunned by the number of bicycles. By the time I got there, there were too many motorcycles to even consider biking, and those were quickly being replaced by cars. Parking a car is an issue, because a decade ago planners never considered that one day everyone might own a car and didn’t plan spaces for apartment buildings. I lived in a nice, fairly new complex and people had to park three or four deep. The type of infrastructure needed to accommodate the new wealth is being built at breakneck speed. In the Great Leap Forward, 1 in 6 people in my province died of starvation. During the 1980s, the economic disasters were over but things were stagnant and grim. People my age (mid-30s) bear signs of stunting and childhood malnutrition. My student’s baby pictures (well, often they have only one or two) show clearly poor surroundings. In the 1990s, economic restrictions were lifted, private business was allowed, and things took off. In think you have to realize that the potential for wealth was always there. The changes aren’t a mystery. Until the 1990s, even things like running a private restaurant was illegal. The economy was being actively being sabotaged. When they stopped preventing growth and joined the modern economy, there was a burst of opportunity and growth. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/46 "2015-06-10T13:12:27Z")
Not really. The US troops in Europe didn’t do very much to hold back the Soviet Union. If the Soviets invaded western Europe, the war would have been over in a matter of weeks. It was the bomb that defended Europe. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/47 "2015-06-10T14:44:32Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I taught for a couple years in small-town China. The change is real, and absolutely breathtaking. My students grew up in extreme poverty- eating meat was a rare treat, their village might be a couple hours walk from the nearest road, and they had relatively little connection to the outside world. As women, the best they could hope for was a early marriage to somebody not too poor. And put that in historical perspective: That was what life was like for most Chinese for thousands of years, yet for thousands of years China was the world’s most brilliant and advanced civilization, **the** First World. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/48 "2015-06-10T15:26:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not really. The US troops in Europe didn’t do very much to hold back the Soviet Union. If the Soviets invaded western Europe, the war would have been over in a matter of weeks. It was the bomb that defended Europe. They werent there to physically repulse a massive Soviet invasion. They were there to die to justify a nuclear response. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/49 "2015-06-10T15:32:27Z")
The UK and France had their own independent nuclear forces. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/50 "2015-06-10T15:37:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And put that in historical perspective: That was what life was like for most Chinese for thousands of years, yet for thousands of years China was the world’s most brilliant and advanced civilization, **the** First World. Cite, please about China being the most advanced and brilliant civilization? They made some brilliant discoveries but rarely followed through with them. They also closed themselves to outside ideas which fueled discovery in Europe and the mideast. From author Daniel Boorstein: The Disoverers: > [@](#): > > and China, with an increasingly weak central government, lost its drive for exploration and withdrew to its own borders.[2] Most importantly, the active public dissemination of scientific knowledge - geographical, cosmological, medical, mechanical, anthropological - never became common practice outside the Judeo-Christian world. China, for example, only allowed the ruling class indulgence in scientific ventures.[3] ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/51 "2015-06-10T15:40:40Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The UK and France had their own independent nuclear forces. Yes they did although France wasnt part of NATO. But that doesnt change the fact that the US had what amounted to a token force in Europe (in relation to eastblock troop levels) so that it would immediately be drawn into the next Euro war. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/52 "2015-06-10T16:24:49Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Cite, please about China being the most advanced and brilliant civilization? They made some brilliant discoveries but rarely followed through with them. They also closed themselves to outside ideas which fueled discovery in Europe and the mideast. Yes, and that was why European civilization began to overtake Chinese civilization starting with the Renaissance. But before that, China was it, not even the brilliant civilization of medieval Islam could quite compare. From [_The Problem of China,_](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13940/13940-h/13940-h.htm#CHAPTER_III) by Bertrand Russell (1922): > [@](#): > > In the year 1793, a British ambassador, Lord Macartney, arrived in China, to request further trade facilities and the establishment of a permanent British diplomatic representative. The Emperor at this time was Chien Lung, the best of the Manchu dynasty, a cultivated man, a patron of the arts, and an exquisite calligraphist. (One finds specimens of his writing in all sorts of places in China.) His reply to King George III is given by Backhouse and Bland.[25] I wish I could quote it all, but some extracts must suffice. It begins: > > > [@](#): > > > > You, O King, live beyond the confines of many seas, nevertheless, impelled by your humble desire to partake of the benefits of our civilization, you have despatched a mission respectfully bearing your memorial… To show your devotion, you have also sent offerings of your country’s produce. I have read your memorial: the earnest terms in which it is cast reveal a respectful humility on your part, which is highly praiseworthy. > > He goes on to explain, with the patient manner appropriate in dealing with an importunate child, why George III’s desires cannot possibly be gratified. An ambassador, he assures him, would be useless, for: > > > [@](#): > > > > If you assert that your reverence for our Celestial Dynasty fills you with a desire to acquire our civilization, our ceremonies and code of laws differ so completely from your own that, even if your Envoy were able to acquire the rudiments of our civilization, you could not possibly transplant our manners and customs to your alien soil. Therefore, however adept the Envoy might become, nothing would be gained thereby. > > > > Swaying the wide world, I have but one aim in view, namely, to maintain a perfect governance and to fulfil the duties of the State; strange and costly objects do not interest me. I … have no use for your country’s manufactures. …It behoves you, O King, to respect my sentiments and to display even greater devotion and loyalty in future, so that, by perpetual submission to our Throne, you may secure peace and prosperity for your country hereafter. > > He can understand the English desiring the produce of China, but feels that they have nothing worth having to offer in exchange: > > “Our Celestial Empire possesses all things in prolific abundance and lacks no product within its own borders. There was therefore no need to import the manufactures of outside barbarians in exchange for our own produce. But as the tea, silk and porcelain which the Celestial Empire produces are absolute necessities to European nations and to yourselves,” the limited trade hitherto permitted at Canton is to continue. > > He would have shown less favour to Lord Macartney, but “I do not forget the lonely remoteness of your island, cut off from the world by intervening wastes of sea, nor do I overlook your excusable ignorance of the usages of our Celestial Empire.” He concludes with the injunction: “Tremblingly obey and show no negligence!” > > What I want to suggest is that no one understands China until this document has ceased to seem absurd. The Romans claimed to rule the world, and what lay outside their Empire was to them of no account. The Empire of Chien Lung was more extensive, with probably a larger population; it had risen to greatness at the same time as Rome, and had not fallen, but invariably defeated all its enemies, either by war or by absorption. Its neighbours were comparatively barbarous, except the Japanese, who acquired their civilization by slavish imitation of China. The view of Chien Lung was no more absurd than that of Alexander the Great, sighing for new worlds to conquer when he had never even heard of China, where Confucius had been dead already for a hundred and fifty years. Nor was he mistaken as regards trade: China produces everything needed for the happiness of its inhabitants, and we have forced trade upon them solely for our benefit, giving them in exchange only things which they would do better without. > > Unfortunately for China, its culture was deficient in one respect, namely science. In art and literature, in manners and customs, it was at least the equal of Europe; at the time of the Renaissance, Europe would not have been in any way the superior of the Celestial Empire. There is a museum in Peking where, side by side with good Chinese art, may be seen the presents which Louis XIV made to the Emperor when he wished to impress him with the splendour of Le Roi Soleil. Compared to the Chinese things surrounding them, they were tawdry and barbaric. The fact that Britain has produced Shakespeare and Milton, Locke and Hume, and all the other men who have adorned literature and the arts, does not make us superior to the Chinese. What makes us superior is Newton and Robert Boyle and their scientific successors. They make us superior by giving us greater proficiency in the art of killing. It is easier for an Englishman to kill a Chinaman than for a Chinaman to kill an Englishman. Therefore our civilization is superior to that of China, and Chien Lung is absurd. When we had finished with Napoleon, we soon set to work to demonstrate this proposition. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/53 "2015-06-10T18:02:45Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Cite, please about China being the most advanced and brilliant civilization? They made some brilliant discoveries but rarely followed through with them. They also closed themselves to outside ideas which fueled discovery in Europe and the mideast. Responding to a post noting thousands of years of progress with a dismissal based on a 16th century event does nothing to make your point. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/54 "2015-06-10T18:52:26Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Responding to a post noting thousands of years of progress with a dismissal based on a 16th century event does nothing to make your point. But what progress? And why hadnt it filtered down to its people? The Emperor that BrainGlutton speaks of wasnt Chinese. China had been conquered by its much smaller northern neighbor. Two of the last three Dynasties were foreign. The posted link is good reading but it certainly isnt authoritative. Was China more advanced than classical Greece in its time? More advanced than Rome? What advances from ancient China have influenced other cultures? The Chinese alphabet but the alphabet wasnt unique to China. China was one of the great civilizations. But the greatest? Im not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/55 "2015-06-10T19:48:18Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > But what progress? And why hadnt it filtered down to its people? By what measure? The Chinese people certainly benefited from say advances in agricultural techniques. But nonetheless in most preindustrial societies education and culture was the province of only a relatively small proportion of the population, and in this aspect the the Chinese until comparatively recently had a large proportion of the population that was literate. > [@](#): > > The Emperor that BrainGlutton speaks of wasnt Chinese. China had been conquered by its much smaller northern neighbor. Two of the last three Dynasties were foreign. The posted link is good reading but it certainly isnt authoritative. Maybe not ethnically Chinese but for all intents and purposes the Qing Dynasty emperors were products of Chinese culture. You might as well say England hasn’t had a truly English monarch in almost a thousand years with them being from France (William the Conqueror), Scotland (James I/VI), and Hanover (George I). > [@](#): > > Was China more advanced than classical Greece in its time? More advanced than Rome? The comparison is more appropriate to the Middle Ages since many of the greatest Chinese technological advances occurred in the Tang and Song Dynasties. > [@](#): > > What advances from ancient China have influenced other cultures? Erhm… Gunpowder? Paper? Compass? This isn’t exactly obscure knowledge. > [@](#): > > The Chinese alphabet but the alphabet wasnt unique to China. There is no such thing as the Chinese alphabet. > [@](#): > > China was one of the great civilizations. But the greatest? Im not sure. Who said it was the greatest? ---
**Author:** ![protoboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@protoboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/protoboard)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/56 "2015-06-10T19:51:25Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > In the 1990s, economic restrictions were lifted, private business was allowed, and things took off. > > In think you have to realize that the potential for wealth was always there. The changes aren’t a mystery. Until the 1990s, even things like running a private restaurant was illegal. The economy was being actively being sabotaged. When they stopped preventing growth and joined the modern economy, there was a burst of opportunity and growth. Didn’t they open up the economy in the late 70s? Or was it mostly just half-hearted tokenistic measures until the “real change” in the early 90s? I know McDonalds opened in 1990 in China. Would you consider that the real start of capitalist China? ---
**Author:** ![protoboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@protoboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/protoboard)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/57 "2015-06-10T19:57:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And put that in historical perspective: That was what life was like for most Chinese for thousands of years, yet for thousands of years China was the world’s most brilliant and advanced civilization, **the** First World. Nah, I don’t think China in the 80s and 90s was more similar to Dynastic China than today. That’s going a bit far. Even during the early Communist years (if not before) it was already modernized to a large degree, even though it was mostly agrarian. At least for the wealthy, which is still largely the case today though China’s “wealthy” demographic is larger. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/58 "2015-06-10T20:01:38Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > China was one of the great civilizations. But the greatest? Im not sure. That’s kind of an unanswerable debate IMHO. What you can almost certainly say is that overall ( not per capita ) China was the world’s wealthiest state until the early 19th century. The enormous agricultural productivity of the eastern core combined with strong internal transportation/communication lines ( flat land, numerous navigable waterways filled in with canals ) made for large populations and consequently enormous landed wealth. And of course landed agricultural wealth was the prime source of wealth until the modern era. Ready access to enormous excess capital by the ruling class allowed for the development of technology and infrastructure. Paper for example is one product we can definitively trace from its origins in China to its transmission to the west ( via the Arabs mostly ). Other things like moveable type, the magnetic compass and gunpowder seem to have arose in China first, but we’re not sure how ( or in the case of moveable type, if ) it transmitted its way west. As to trade and isolationism, it has been much exaggerated based on certain late Imperial ideologies and politics. Some of the Chinese dynasties ( and not just the foreign ones ) were highly expansionist and Chinese traders have frequently dominated the southwestern Pacific. The Southern Sung in particular were the greatest naval traders of their time. The reason it was never central to most Chinese governments was a) customs and tariff fees were usually a drop in the bucket next to the enormous land revenues and b) China was largely self-sufficient in both common and luxury goods and so large area-wise that internal production could specialize regionally to satisfy most every corner of the state. One thing they _didn’t_ produce ( at first ) - opium. That turned out to be a particularly serious achilles heel ;). Greatest civilization of the pre-modern era? Maybe, maybe not. Wealthiest ( again, in aggregate )? Definitely. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/59 "2015-06-10T20:12:11Z")
The history of the invention of gunpowder is rather controversial and the sources questionable. But it was the Mongols who spread gunpowder, not the Chinese. The Chinese kept many of their inventions state secrets and this hindered the advancement of science. And the Olmecs might have invented the first compass…again the evidence is mixed. Yeah the Chinese made some great discoveries but they didnt spread them and sometimes lost them. You are being a bit pedantic about my use of the word alphabet. The English havent been conquered since William the Conqueror. Also Euro monarchy operated differently from Asian monarchy. My argument was that how could such an advanced and massive nation be conquered by relativly small nomadic people. China was rotting from the inside because of corruption and peasant revolts; a reaccuring theme in its history. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/60 "2015-06-10T20:16:39Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > That’s kind of an unanswerable debate IMHO. > > What you can almost certainly say is that overall ( not per capita ) China was the world’s wealthiest state until the early 19th century. The enormous agricultural productivity of the eastern core combined with strong internal transportation/communication lines ( flat land, numerous navigable waterways filled in with canals ) made for large populations and consequently enormous landed wealth. And of course landed agricultural wealth was the prime source of wealth until the modern era. Ready access to enormous excess capital by the ruling class allowed for the development of technology and infrastructure. Paper for example is one product we can definitively trace from its origins in China to its transmission to the west ( via the Arabs mostly ). Other things like moveable type, the magnetic compass and gunpowder seem to have arose in China first, but we’re not sure how ( or in the case of moveable type, if ) it transmitted its way west. > > As to trade and isolationism, it has been much exaggerated based on certain late Imperial ideologies and politics. Some of the Chinese dynasties ( and not just the foreign ones ) were highly expansionist and Chinese traders have frequently dominated the southwestern Pacific. The Southern Sung in particular were the greatest naval traders of their time. The reason it was never central to most Chinese governments was a) customs and tariff fees were usually a drop in the bucket next to the enormous land revenues and b) China was largely self-sufficient in both common and luxury goods and so large area-wise that internal production could specialize regionally to satisfy most every corner of the state. One thing they _didn’t_ produce ( at first ) - opium. That turned out to be a particularly serious achilles heel ;). > > Greatest civilization of the pre-modern era? Maybe, maybe not. Wealthiest ( again, in aggregate )? Definitely. Thats a excellent overview. Agree totally. But mustnt we differentiate between the wealthy and hate to say it but the other 99% who lived in relative poverty and always ready to rebel? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033.md?page=4)