# How much of China's rise is fabricated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033 "2015-06-09T01:51:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/61 "2015-06-10T20:19:35Z")
I think we also need to define just what China is. Did the Qin conquests in 221 BC create what we know as China? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/62 "2015-06-10T20:34:11Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Yes they did although France wasnt part of NATO. France was part of NATO. What it left was the integrated command, not NATO itself (IOW, France was still part of the alliance, but in case of conflict, her forces would have acted independantly rather than under NATO supreme command). ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/63 "2015-06-10T20:39:27Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > France was part of NATO. What it left was the integrated command, not NATO itself (IOW, France was still part of the alliance, but in case of conflict, her forces would have acted independantly rather than under NATO supreme command). I stand corrected. Is it still this way? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/64 "2015-06-10T20:39:39Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > The history of the invention of gunpowder is rather controversial and the sources questionable. But it was the Mongols who spread gunpowder, not the Chinese. The Chinese kept many of their inventions state secrets and this hindered the advancement of science. Its pretty much the mainstream scholarly consensus that the Chinese invented gunpowder. And none of that changes the fact that it was the Chinese who invented it. You might as well say American secrecy around the atomic bomb hindered the advancement of science. > [@](#): > > And the Olmecs might have invented the first compass…again the evidence is mixed. Yeah the Chinese made some great discoveries but they didnt spread them and sometimes lost them. The evidence is disputed but the Olmec “compass” didn’t spread anywhere, unlike the Chinese compass which was spread throughout Eurasia even if not necessarily by the Chinese. > [@](#): > > You are being a bit pedantic about my use of the word alphabet. Its no more pedantic than criticizing referring to the Head of State of the American Republic as the “King”. > [@](#): > > The English havent been conquered since William the Conqueror. Its cause they have a little thing called the English Channel between them. > [@](#): > > Also Euro monarchy operated differently from Asian monarchy. The significance being…? > [@](#): > > My argument was that how could such an advanced and massive nation be conquered by relativly small nomadic people. China was rotting from the inside because of corruption and peasant revolts; a reaccuring theme in its history. You might also want to consider superior military tactics and technology as well. The Mongols had no problem defeating Persian, Turkish, and European armies either. Corruption and peasant revolts again have been a problem in virtually every civilization, ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/65 "2015-06-11T09:11:03Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I live in Shanghai. I work in a company where I am the only foreigner. But everyone here is comfortably middle-class; many have nice cars (And in Shanghai that’s not just the cost of the car; a legal license plate costs about $15,000…) and will happily drop hundreds of dollars on a DSLR camera, or an iPhone 6 or whatever. > And while of course millions of people living in Shanghai live in poverty, don’t get me wrong about that, the fact is, it’s also true that millions live the quality of life I’m describing. As Westerners many of us tend to live in a bubble. In my workplace a typical engineer makes 15,000 CNY per month, plus housing benefit. That’s not bad money. Your guys probably make more in Shanghai, and of course bonus formulas can skew the monthly salaries. But as in America, engineers (or other professionals) that we see every day don’t constitute the majority. The ayis (the cleaning ladies) make about 2,000 CNY per month. Retail workers make about the same. Some of my Chinese colleagues have their $250,000, 1000 square foot apartments and are lucky to have it to themselves while most of the other units in the complex are multi-generational, or people cramming themselves in just to get by. The hukou situation is still a big mess. Laborers, retail workers, and so on don’t receive social services or medical care (but pay the tax, if employed legally) because they’re not allowed to register their households. Health departments (food sanitation) don’t do their jobs. Trash accumulates. Traffic isn’t policed well (nothing is policed well, really). I walked down West Nanjing Rd this morning. By all appearances it’s completely first world, but you don’t have to walk too many blocks to see some depressing conditions. I took the high speed train back home this morning. I was disappointed that no more first class seats were available (I didn’t book ahead), but most of the people in second class were decent and respectable. But we passed one of the old cattle-car trains packed to the gills with people of little means. While 138 CNY for a train ticket is practically free to a lot of Chinese, there are substantially more that have to take the old, slow, cheap trains. China’s middle class is larger than the population of the United States, but that still leaves about a billion people in poverty. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2015, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/66 "2015-06-11T09:45:49Z")
Agree with all of that **Balthisar**. Like I said, in Shanghai, millions live in poverty, and millions live very comfortably thankyouverymuch. And I have seen first hand (though admittedly briefly) the conditions people have to live in in rural villages, and how little of china’s development has trickled down to such places. Generally it’s fine to draw averages and just say “significantly poorer than the US” or whatever. But here, in the context of this OP, I think it’s misleading. The view out of my window is like Manhattan, and it’s not just some illusion to trick the West. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/67 "2015-06-12T10:56:24Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Like I said, in Shanghai, millions live in poverty, and millions live very comfortably thankyouverymuch. You know, this reminds me of something the poor in China and Mexico have in common, that American “poor” don’t have: they’re comfortable, and they’re not envious for things they can’t have. Now don’t get me wrong; raise their social status a bit and Chinese are all about keeping-up-with-the-Jones, envious, showy, jealous, and will put any American suburbanite to shame. But the poor, as long as they’re comfortable, pretty much accept their lot in life without significant complaint. Contrast to that to the typical American poor person who believes in his soul that society owes him a middle class living. So, yeah, I’ll suggest that so many of the people you see living comfortably are indeed poor, but they get enough of their needs met to be comfortable. (And for the others, I’ll point out that Shanghai’s urban and exurban population is above 35 million, and so even 10% middle class would constitute “millions” of very comfortable people.) **Mijin** , and I’ll give you this, too: I appreciate every trip I ever make to Shanghai. For me it’s like an escape from China proper. Nanjing is nice, but damn, I really like Shanghai. Every time I go, I tell myself I should come back again soon, and then I never do, until there’s a need. Kick me in the ass if you ever see me! ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2015, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/68 "2015-06-14T05:07:16Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2015, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/69 "2015-06-14T06:09:57Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > You know, this reminds me of something the poor in China and Mexico have in common, that American “poor” don’t have: they’re comfortable, and they’re not envious for things they can’t have. > > Now don’t get me wrong; raise their social status a bit and Chinese are all about keeping-up-with-the-Jones, envious, showy, jealous, and will put any American suburbanite to shame. But the poor, as long as they’re comfortable, pretty much accept their lot in life without significant complaint. Contrast to that to the typical American poor person who believes in his soul that society owes him a middle class living. > > So, yeah, I’ll suggest that so many of the people you see living comfortably are indeed poor, but they get enough of their needs met to be comfortable. (And for the others, I’ll point out that Shanghai’s urban and exurban population is above 35 million, and so even 10% middle class would constitute “millions” of very comfortable people.) > > **Mijin** , and I’ll give you this, too: I appreciate every trip I ever make to Shanghai. For me it’s like an escape from China proper. Nanjing is nice, but damn, I really like Shanghai. Every time I go, I tell myself I should come back again soon, and then I never do, until there’s a need. Kick me in the ass if you ever see me! As an owner of a Toluca built Dodge Journey and now a Nanjing built Ford Fiesta, I will from now on hold you personally responsible for all my car troubles. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/70 "2015-06-15T04:39:15Z")
> [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](#): > > As an owner of a Toluca built Dodge Journey and now a Nanjing built Ford Fiesta, I will from now on hold you personally responsible for all my car troubles. Well, I was responsible for the Cuautitlan, Mexico Fiesta, and nothing to do with Chrysler. 😃 But, don’t you live in Canada? You would have the Cuautitlan Fiesta. The Nanjing Fiesta is now built for us by Changan-Mazda. We sold off Mazda a few years ago and gave up our interest in that plant. Besides, we don’t export cars from China! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/71 "2015-06-15T15:26:10Z")
I was about to ask about that - I didn’t think anyone was exporting volume models _from_ China yet. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/72 "2015-06-16T05:47:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I was about to ask about that - I didn’t think anyone was exporting volume models _from_ China yet. Exports are about a million per year now, but mainly to developing countries, and really only Chinese, low-cost, low-quality brands that can sell dirt cheap in those countries. Exporting well known multi-national brands is probably not going to happen, at least not on a mass scale. The labor cost in China is too expensive versus places like Thailand and India. Besides, capacity expansions for all of the big brands are barely enough to keep up with local demand. This is a country whose middle class is as large as the entire population of the United States, and continues to grow. ---
**Author:** ![protoboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@protoboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/protoboard)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033/73 "2015-09-19T02:18:46Z")
> **[Google](https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=china+life+expectancy)** > > Search the world's information, including webpages, images, videos and more. Google has many special features to help you find exactly what you're looking for. China’s life expectancy interestingly has been comparable to America’s since about 1970. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-chinas-rise-is-fabricated/722033.md?page=3)