# How much of our money goes to taxes??
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 10, 2004, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191 "2004-08-10T13:11:34Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Boy\_Scout11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boy_Scout11)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/21 "2004-08-10T16:06:56Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> I was wondering when you’d get around to blaming things on “the Jews”. You’ll beed something a little more origianl than that. Do you think it hasn’t been tried around here before?
I am constantly reminded everyday, that this government lies and covers it up, while we, the hard working are taxed to death and pay for such foolishness and stupidity by this government, while not one national news organization, carried Jimmy Carters address at the Democratic convention claiming that Israel makes our Middle East policy and we give them all that money. Can you say, the Jewish leadership in this country controlls our media and Middle East policy that kills our soldiers, makes all of our people hated by the rest of the world and will not send their soldiers into the field of battle.
Can you say that our non Jewish leaders are not just as bad for selling themselves for votes and giving away trillions in foreign aid, forgiving foreign debt and running this entire nations children into debt.
How about ouyr so called retired leaders from congress, that go to work for private co’s. and get no bid contracts, or Enron, where our government looked the other way on price fixing, or the thousands of other little and big nasties by this so called leadership. The so called non Jewish leadership in this country bears just as much as the Jewish leadership in this country and I have never once just blamed the Jewish leadership, so stuff it.
---
### Author:  [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/22 "2004-08-10T16:26:47Z")
> [@Boy Scout11](#):
>
> This is really funny, when the Syndicate allows this much to be told, to keep the consumption tax from going thru.
Don’t you see? This is the classic ruse: they’re trying to hide the cause _and_ the effect from you. A tax on individuals with consumption unnecessarily burdens the poor. Consumption, also known as tuberculosis, is much more prevalent in countries like Russia, where most economic activity is controlled by crime syndicates. So you see, the syndicates are actually _against_ the tax, too!
> [@](#):
>
> Would they not be liable for such ignorance, if his words were false?
They’re only liable if it’s libel, but slander is grander. Happily, we live–or at least I live–in America. You can say whatever you want, no matter how ignorant, and your only liability is that some people (those heartless bastards) will ridicule your ignorance.
> [@](#):
>
> If that is true, you will see where he shows that with such a tax, that to equal what we have now, we as Americans would have to pay much more that 50% at the point of the sale, so in essence, he is saying, that Americans right now, are paying way more than 50% in taxes,
Alright, let’s cut to the chase. I didn’t bring my Arabian Horse into this thread, so I can’t keep up with you if you’re going to go tear-assing around like that. You should be wearing a helmet. No, I mean, you should provide me a cite so I can read through his logic.
Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
> [@](#):
>
> …while this government makes it seem far less and this government claims we pay the least in taxes, by comparison to countries with national health care and their citizens for years have had at least a months vacation every year and many other such things.
It’s the strangest damn thing. We don’t have to spend money for national health care or subsidized vacation, so we pay less in taxes. You’re right, though. With less money in and less money going out, this government does make it seem far less.
Wait, when did they claim we paid the least in taxes? Uh-huh? No, no, I was hoping you could provide a cite from another source. They’re the bracket keys – you just put them around a URL and it practically cites itself.
> [@](#):
>
> Hey, lets not forget that we pay somewhere near 3 times the rate for drugs.
What you pay your dealer is no business of mine.
I’ll be back in a moment to finish this argument; see, there’s this guy over in another thread who thinks… nah, never mind, you’d never believe it anyway.
---
### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/23 "2004-08-10T16:39:41Z")
> [@Boy Scout11](#):
>
> while not one national news organization, carried Jimmy Carters address at the Democratic convention claiming that Israel makes our Middle East policy and we give them all that money. Can you say, the Jewish leadership in this country controlls our media and Middle East policy that kills our soldiers, makes all of our people hated by the rest of the world and will not send their soldiers into the field of battle.
Except, again, as **Neurotik** showed in the other thread, Carter didn’t say that. And do you have any evidence that the Jewish leadership in this country controls our media and Middle East policy?
I don’t even know who “the Jewish leadership” is. It’s not like Jews are a particularly regimented or uniform group. It’s like that old joke. Two Jews are stranded on a deserted island, so they build three synagogues, one that the first one will go to, one that the second one will go to, and the third that neither of them would be caught dead in.
---
### Author:  [@Boy\_Scout11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boy_Scout11)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/24 "2004-08-10T16:43:21Z")
[QUOTE=Jurph]
Don’t you see? This is the classic ruse: they’re trying to hide the cause _and_ the effect from you. A tax on individuals with consumption unnecessarily burdens the poor. Consumption, also known as tuberculosis, is much more prevalent in countries like Russia, where most economic activity is controlled by crime syndicates. So you see, the syndicates are actually _against_ the tax, too!
They’re only liable if it’s libel, but slander is grander. Happily, we live–or at least I live–in America. You can say whatever you want, no matter how ignorant, and your only liability is that some people (those heartless bastards) will ridicule your ignorance.
Alright, let’s cut to the chase. I didn’t bring my Arabian Horse into this thread, so I can’t keep up with you if you’re going to go tear-assing around like that. You should be wearing a helmet. No, I mean, you should provide me a cite so I can read through his logic.
Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
It’s the strangest damn thing. We don’t have to spend money for national health care or subsidized vacation, so we pay less in taxes. You’re right, though. With less money in and less money going out, this government does make it seem far less.
Wait, when did they claim we paid the least in taxes? Uh-huh? No, no, I was hoping you could provide a cite from another source. They’re the bracket keys – you just put them around a URL and it practically cites itself.
## What you pay your dealer is no business of mine.
I didn’t think you would address Carters speech and why the national news media decided not to pick it up, as well as other things I spoke of, like this governments constant lying and covering it up. How about propaganda, the kind that you do here constantly. When this country falls hard, I hope someone comes knocking on your door first you anti American. Get lost
---
### Author:  [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/25 "2004-08-10T16:57:37Z")
> [@Boy Scout11](#):
>
> I didn’t think you would address Carters speech and why the national news media decided not to pick it up,
Which speech? Could you please, please, pretty please with Arabian Hurricane Maple Syrup on top, provide a URL link to his speech?
> [@](#):
>
> as well as other things I spoke of, like this governments constant lying and covering it up.
I tried to address all of your points, but there were just so many of them. I had to pick and choose.
> [@](#):
>
> How about propaganda, the kind that you do here constantly.
It’s not propaganda; it’s ridicule. This is Great Debates. We’re trying to have intelligent discourse here. A few of the things that help that along are
- coherently stating your argument
- using the URL tag to provide citations from reputable sources
and
- bringing the components of your argument together using logic
So far, you have not done any of these. You’re still back at the “making assertions” step. When challenged, you appear only to make more assertions, raving less and less coherently about Jews and lies and so on.
> [@](#):
>
> When this country falls hard, I hope someone comes knocking on your door first you anti American.
[I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.](http://usmilitary.about.com/library/weekly/aa032403a.htm) You, on the other hand, have stooped to name-calling and personal insults in the Great Debates forum. Stick to the argument at hand.
> [@](#):
>
> Get lost.
When you’re hosting the debate, that’s a danger I face every moment.
---
### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/26 "2004-08-10T17:07:36Z")
> [@Boy Scout11](#):
>
> I didn’t think you would address Carters speech and why the national news media decided not to pick it up, as well as other things I spoke of, like this governments constant lying and covering it up.
I did also want to point out that Carter’s speech was shown on C-Span, which showed all of the convention speeches. You can also find a copy of it on the Washington Post’s website:
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16368-2004Jul26.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16368-2004Jul26.html)
Or the website of the New York Times:
> **[President Jimmy Carter's Remarks to the Democratic National Convention...](https://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/26/politics/campaign/president-jimmy-carters-remarks-to-the-democratic-national.html)**
>
> Following are the remarks made by President Jimmy Carter at the Democratic National Convention in Boston on Monday night, as recorded by the Federal News Service, Inc.:
I haven’t checked yet, but I also have a feeling you could find it on the websites of the Chicago Tribune and the L.A. Times. That’s a lot of coverage by the national news media for a speech they didn’t pick up.
---
### Author:  [@Boy\_Scout11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boy_Scout11)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/27 "2004-08-10T17:43:06Z")
> [@Jurph](#):
>
> Which speech? Could you please, please, pretty please with Arabian Hurricane Maple Syrup on top, provide a URL link to his speech?
>
> I tried to address all of your points, but there were just so many of them. I had to pick and choose.
>
> It’s not propaganda; it’s ridicule. This is Great Debates. We’re trying to have intelligent discourse here. A few of the things that help that along are
>
> - coherently stating your argument
> - using the URL tag to provide citations from reputable sources
> and
> - bringing the components of your argument together using logic
>
> So far, you have not done any of these. You’re still back at the “making assertions” step. When challenged, you appear only to make more assertions, raving less and less coherently about Jews and lies and so on.
>
> [I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.](http://usmilitary.about.com/library/weekly/aa032403a.htm) You, on the other hand, have stooped to name-calling and personal insults in the Great Debates forum. Stick to the argument at hand.
>
> When you’re hosting the debate, that’s a danger I face every moment.
* * *
With you hiding behind the flag, after your sarcasam and innuendo, aimed at me every moment, it gets kinda tough to be civil to such as you. Drop off.
---
### Author:  [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/28 "2004-08-10T17:44:11Z")
**BoyScout11** , I understand that you are an American, but what’s your native language?
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### Author:  [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/29 "2004-08-10T17:44:39Z")
BoyScout, are you planning on providing any evidence, cites or concrete examples to back up your claims?
---
### Author:  [@Boy\_Scout11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boy_Scout11)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/30 "2004-08-10T17:47:49Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> I did also want to point out that Carter’s speech was shown on C-Span, which showed all of the convention speeches. You can also find a copy of it on the Washington Post’s website:
>
> [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16368-2004Jul26.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16368-2004Jul26.html)
>
> Or the website of the New York Times:
>
> [http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/26/politics/campaign/26TEXT-CARTER.html?ex=1092283200&en=c7d1db141fefd430&ei=5070](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/26/politics/campaign/26TEXT-CARTER.html?ex=1092283200&en=c7d1db141fefd430&ei=5070)
>
> I haven’t checked yet, but I also have a feeling you could find it on the websites of the Chicago Tribune and the L.A. Times. That’s a lot of coverage by the national news media for a speech they didn’t pick up.
* * *
Wow, it looks like a glowingly edited review by those two papers, but you should have seen what MSN had to say and then, maybe we can figure out what was edited.
This is what MSN had to say,–[http://slate.msn.com/id/2104411](http://slate.msn.com/id/2104411)
This is why Jimmy Carter’s speech from last night, which sounded (admittedly, from the cheapest of the cheap seats—two rows behind the Al Jazeera section and just above the balloon sausages tethered to the ceiling) like it emanated from a paper bag full of marbles and Jimmy Carters, was interesting less for what he said than for the reports coming from the guy behind me on his cell phone. “It’s going over well on TV!” he crows to the section. The section heaves a sigh. (Everyone at this convention is on his cell phone seemingly all the time. Hopefully, one or two of us are on the phone with Kerry telling him to lose the line about being “anxious, yet sanguine.”)
They chose not to print his speech.
---
### Author:  [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/31 "2004-08-10T18:01:55Z")
> [@Boy Scout11](#):
>
> Wow, it looks like a glowingly edited review by those two papers, but you should have seen what MSN had to say and then, maybe we can figure out what was edited.
>
> _[snip by zev\_steinhardt]_
>
> They chose not to print his speech.
IOW, “everyone else tampered with the evidence (in a conspiracy run by ‘those who control the media),’ and even though I don’t have any evidence myself, I’m going to stand by my assertion of what Carter said.”
Zev Steinhardt
---
### Author:  [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/32 "2004-08-10T18:08:08Z")
**Boy Scout11** : You are accomplishing something unusual here which is uniting everyone from the left-wingers to the libertarians behind an idea. And, that idea is that your threads so far have been complete tin-foil-hat-territory train-wrecks. If you want to persist in the view that you know better than anyone else what is going on in the world, you are going to have to do a lot better than you are doing… **a lot better**.
Just to give you some numbers on effective tax rates, [here](http://www.ctj.org/pdf/fsl2004.pdf) courtesy of CTJ is something showing the effective tax rates as a percent of income due to federal, state, and local taxes as a function of income quintile and such. Note that the average tax rate over all income groups is about 30%, which is in line with other estimates I’ve seen.
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> I think he’s talking about Bruce Bartlett’s opinion column today.
>
> [http://www.townhall.com/columnists/brucebartlett/bb20040810.shtml](http://www.townhall.com/columnists/brucebartlett/bb20040810.shtml)
By the way, lest people buy into Bartlett’s claims regarding the relative living standards in the U.S. and Europe, [here](http://www.pkarchive.org/economy/ForRicher.html) is what Paul Krugman has noted in regards to these calculations based on averages:
> [@](#):
>
> Many Americans assume that because we are the richest country in the world, with real G.D.P. per capita higher than that of other major advanced countries, Americans must be better off across the board – that it’s not just our rich who are richer than their counterparts abroad, but that the typical American family is much better off than the typical family elsewhere, and that even our poor are well off by foreign standards.
>
> But it’s not true. Let me use the example of Sweden, that great conservative bete noire.
>
> A few months ago the conservative cyberpundit Glenn Reynolds made a splash when he pointed out that Sweden’s G.D.P. per capita is roughly comparable with that of Mississippi – see, those foolish believers in the welfare state have impoverished themselves! Presumably he assumed that this means that the typical Swede is as poor as the typical resident of Mississippi, and therefore much worse off than the typical American.
>
> But life expectancy in Sweden is about three years higher than that of the U.S. Infant mortality is half the U.S. level, and less than a third the rate in Mississippi. Functional illiteracy is much less common than in the U.S.
>
> How is this possible? One answer is that G.D.P. per capita is in some ways a misleading measure. Swedes take longer vacations than Americans, so they work fewer hours per year. That’s a choice, not a failure of economic performance. Real G.D.P. per hour worked is 16 percent lower than in the United States, which makes Swedish productivity about the same as Canada’s.
>
> But the main point is that though Sweden may have lower average income than the United States, that’s mainly because our rich are so much richer. The median Swedish family has a standard of living roughly comparable with that of the median U.S. family: wages are if anything higher in Sweden, and a higher tax burden is offset by public provision of health care and generally better public services. And as you move further down the income distribution, Swedish living standards are way ahead of those in the U.S. Swedish families with children that are at the 10th percentile – poorer than 90 percent of the population – have incomes 60 percent higher than their U.S. counterparts. And very few people in Sweden experience the deep poverty that is all too common in the United States. One measure: in 1994 only 6 percent of Swedes lived on less than $11 per day, compared with 14 percent in the U.S.
---
### Author:  [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/33 "2004-08-10T18:09:36Z")
> [@Boy Scout11](#):
>
> With you hiding behind the flag, after your sarcasam and innuendo, aimed at me every moment, it gets kinda tough to be civil to such as you. Drop off.
I’m not hiding behind the flag – I’m standing in front of it. But my military service is not the issue here. At least I don’t think it is. Will you please get back to the original debate?
The proposition for debate is (I think):
“Americans pay more than 50% in taxes, despite the government’s claims that the maximum tax rate is 35%.”
Also open for debate (if you choose) are the following ancillary propositions:
“The Syndicate controls what you see and hear to influence whether certain legislation is passed,”
“Jurph is an anti-American despite his military service record,”
“The media (with the exception of a few major sources) failed to cover Carter’s speech,”
“The Jews are to blame,” and
“BoyScout11 doesn’t know how to use the URL tag to cite sources.”
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/34 "2004-08-10T18:18:13Z")
> [@jshore](#):
>
> **Boy Scout11** : You are accomplishing something unusual here which is uniting everyone from the left-wingers to the libertarians behind an idea.
Left-wingers and libertarians UNITE! 🙂
---
### Author:  [@EsotericEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EsotericEnigma)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/35 "2004-08-10T18:31:33Z")
Just to make it convenient for everyone involved, I’m going to make a short list of the assertions that BoyScout11 has made, so that they can be conveniently quoted and dismissed by those who follow me. I don’t have any arguments to make against them, because these statements do a good enough job arguing against themselves.
1. The US pays a higher percentage of taxes than other industrialized democracies.
2. Israel is a welfare state.
3. Israel (or perhaps more appropriately, the generic “Jews”) controls US foreign policy and the media.
4. “The Jews” don’t send their soldiers into battle, but instead use us to fight for them.
5. Jimmy Carter’s speech at the democratic convention was not published by any news agency, as part of a vast conspiracy to keep us from knowing just how much the Jews own us.
6. Anyone who thinks the above 1 through 5 are racist and just flat out incorrect is an anti American.
Have fun. 🙂
---
### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/36 "2004-08-10T18:38:22Z")
> [@Boy Scout11](#):
>
> Wow, it looks like a glowingly edited review by those two papers, but you should have seen what MSN had to say and then, maybe we can figure out what was edited.
Except, that MSN review doesn’t say that Carter says what you assert he says. It just says that the reporter couldn’t hear Carter because the guy next to him was talking in his cell phone. If you have evidence that the speech I linked to was edited prior to publication, please let me see it.
---
### Author:  [@Boy\_Scout11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boy_Scout11)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/37 "2004-08-10T19:20:51Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> Except, that MSN review doesn’t say that Carter says what you assert he says. It just says that the reporter couldn’t hear Carter because the guy next to him was talking in his cell phone. If you have evidence that the speech I linked to was edited prior to publication, please let me see it.
I am searching the web and I called the phone number to Jimmy [Carter.com](http://Carter.com) and spoke with a woman and she said, c span has the rights to his speech and I went to the DNC and can’t find his speech there. No tellin, but I will keep looking.
---
### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/38 "2004-08-10T19:29:41Z")
Well, here’s the C-Span link to Carter’s speech. (The 7th link down…it’ll open the video)
[http://www.c-span.org/search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=carter](http://www.c-span.org/search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=carter)
I haven’t watched it yet…I don’t have speakers on this computer. Can anyone tell me if there are differences from the text that I had linked to earlier?
---
### Author:  [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/39 "2004-08-10T19:45:37Z")
> [@Boy Scout11](#):
>
> I am searching the web and I called the phone number to Jimmy [Carter.com](http://Carter.com) and spoke with a woman and she said, c span has the rights to his speech and I went to the DNC and can’t find his speech there. No tellin, but I will keep looking.
After finding out that C-Span has the rights to the speech, why would you go to [DNC.com](http://DNC.com) and not go to [cspan.com?!?](http://cspan.com?!?)
I’ll ask you again, BoyScout: are you going to provide any evidence or citation for your opening argument? Are you going to make an actual argument, or are you going to remain vague and non-specific?
---
### Author:  [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-our-money-goes-to-taxes/259191/40 "2004-08-10T20:19:05Z")
Again, I’m a Jew… **and** I’m in the (print) media.
I love being all-powerful. Give me a dollar.
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