# How much of the Superman mythos did Siegel and Shuster create? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 20, 2003, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752 "2003-03-20T06:29:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/1 "2003-03-20T06:29:42Z")
I know that Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster invented Superman, wrote some of the early stories, then sold the character to DC (or their corporate ancestor). I don’t know how long they worked on the character, however. Which Superman elements were directly created by Siegel and Shuster? I know they created Superman, Clark and Lois. Luthor? Perry White? Lana? Lori? Krypton? Kryptonite? Fortress of Solitude? Superboy? Flight instead of long leaps? Dunno. You get the idea. My question isn’t limited to the things I’ve named above. And are there significant things Siegel and Shuster invented that _aren’t_ part of the Superman story anymore? (Can of worms, I know.) ---
**Author:** ![Asylum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@Asylum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asylum)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/2 "2003-03-20T07:47:53Z")
Superman was first published in 1938 and created by Schuster and Siegel a little earlier and they left the book in 1947. Lessee… They created Krypton, Kryptonite (which for some bizarre reasons first appeared on the radio show and not the comic), Lois Lane, Lex Luthor (who was an amped up clone of the Ultra-Humanite, an early Superman villain who in turn was loosely based on the earliest version of Superman where he was bald, had mental powers and planned to take over the world), Perry White and Superman flying instead of jumping. Jimmy Olsen was created for the Superman radio show, Superboy was conceived of by editor Jack Schiff and Lana Lang also appeared in that title, and since Siegal and Schuster didn’t do those comics it seem reasonable to assume they didn’t create her either. Fortress of Solitude is kind of iffy as it didn’t appear by name until 1949. [Here’s a history on it.](http://theages.superman.ws/Encyclopaedia/Fortress/history.php#history) And from that same site, [Lori Lamaris](http://theages.superman.ws/Encyclopaedia/lori.php) wasn’t created until 1959 so she’s not an S&S creation either (actually that whole site gives a pretty good overview of the Superman mythos). All the above except for the bits on the Fortress of Solitude and Lori Lamaris from [DC Comics: Sixty Years of the World’s Favorite Comic Book Heroes](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0821220764/qid=1048145754/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-7790295-9771326?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) by Les Daniel. ---
**Author:** ![Asylum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@Asylum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asylum)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/3 "2003-03-20T07:49:29Z")
Let me clarify that, Lex Luthor was not a clone per se of the Ultra-Humanite, he was just based on him. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/4 "2003-03-20T08:14:14Z")
[This page](http://www.enjolrasworld.com/HTML%20Bibliographies/Siegel%20&%20Shuster%20Bibliography.htm) lists the credits for Siegel and Shuster, including: _Action_ #1: Extra-terrestrial origin established, though Krypton was not specifically named. _Action_ #6: Jimmy Olsen (although I think this is wrong and Jimmy’s first appearance was in _Superman_ #13, also written by Seigel) _Action_ #23: Lex Luthor (though the list does not mention this, which is odd) _Action_ #252: Supergirl (though the character was a variant on a magically created and short-lived “Super-Girl” that had appeared in an earlier story by Otto Binder) _Superman_ #7: Perry White [This page](http://superman.ws/fos/copyright/comicon1.php) documents a lawsuit brought by Siegel’s widow and daughter, successfully regaining control of Siegel’s half of the copyrights on: > [@](#): > > “each and every work (in any medium whatsoever, whenever created) that includes or embodies any character, story element, or indicia reasonably associated with Superman or the Superman stories, such as, without limitation, Superman, Clark Kent, Lois Lane, Perry White, Jimmy Olsen, Superboy, Supergirl, Lana Lang, Lex Luthor, Mr. Mxyzptlk, Ma and Pa Kent, Steel, the planet Krypton, Kryptonite, Metropolis, Smallville, or the Daily Planet.” Presumably Shuster’s heirs could make a similar claim, but Siegel was the writer of the pair and had more creative control of the concepts. The pair did _not_ invent Kryptonite, though. That was invented for the Superman radio show, though it clearly springs from S&S’s work. Flying (instead of leaping) is also a radio invention (the “whoosing” sound was better than “KaBOING!” I guess). Lana Lang and Lori Lemaris are definitely not S&S creations. A proto-Fortress of Solitude appears as early as 1942 (Superman’s “Mountain Retreat”) and is probably an S&S job, but the Arctic version with the giant key came much later. The first Superboy story (_More Fun Comics_ #101) was not written by Siegel, nor was _Superman_ #53, which greatly expanded on the origin story, including naming Krypton and Supes’ biological parents, Jor-L and Lara. Trying to sort all this out is tricky, since I can’t find a simple list of the writer/artist credits for every issue of _Superman_, _Action_ and _Adventure Comics_. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/5 "2003-03-20T08:23:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Asylum \* > They created Krypton, Kryptonite (which for some bizarre reasons first appeared on the radio show and not the comic) A possibly apocryphal story has it that Kryptonite was invented for the radio show so Superman could just groan in pain for two weeks worth of shows, allowing voice actor Clayton “Bud” Collyer to go on vacation. [An episode list of the old-time radio shows](http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Labyrinth/6307/ClaytonBudCollyer/SUPERMAN19401.html) cites George Ludlum as writing episodes featuring Jor-L and Lara as early as 1940. Sorting out exactly who created what is almost dissertation-worthy. ---
**Author:** ![Asylum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@Asylum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asylum)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/6 "2003-03-20T08:34:51Z")
Seems our sources aren’t jiving **Bryan**. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > **_Action_ #6: Jimmy Olsen (although I think this is wrong and Jimmy’s first appearance was in _Superman_ #13, also written by Seigel)** From the DC Comics History I mentioned above, p. 66: > [@](#): > > Created for radio to provide the almost obligatory young sidekick, Jimmy Olsen was a cub reporter described on the show as “sixteen, thin, freckle-faced.” He proved so successful that DC adopted him permanently, and he even got his own comic book in 1954. > [@](#): > > **The pair did not invent Kryptonite, though. That was invented for the Superman radio show, though it clearly springs from S&S’s work.** P. 120 > [@](#): > > In fact little-known evidence exists to prove that DC could have introduced this menace to Superman much earlier, but instead decided to turn it down. > > Around 1939 or 1940 Superman’s creator Jerry Siegel wrote a story that has never been published… > > …Siegel called it “the K-Metal,” a glowing green element from the planet Krypton, and it caused Clark Kent to collapse in pain… a huge kryptonite meteor hurtling past Earth had completely robbed Superman of his powers. > > … > > …\*t’s most likely that the idea of letting Lois in on Clark’s secret is what kept this story unpublished. So they didn’t give it the name kryptonite but they got everything else, and the book includes a few panels from the unpublished story to back up this claim. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/7 "2003-03-20T12:34:25Z")
Kryptonite was created by Dorothy Woolfolk, according to the March 2001 issue of Comic Book Artist (P.6). The most popular version of Supergirl was created by Otto Binder in the late 50s (He had created Mary Marvel about 15 years earlier). Morgan Edge, the mildly evil publisher of the Daily Planet, was created in 1970 by Jack Kirby. Legion of Superheroes (the 30th Century superhero club Superboy joined) was created by, I think, Mort Weisenger. None of this would be important without Siegel and Schuster’s groundwork, of course. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/8 "2003-03-20T13:06:17Z")
Great thread! What is the significance of the Hebrew-derived names on the planet Krypton? Jor-El, Kal-El,etc.? Knowing that the originators were Jewish, I wonder how much of this found its way into the characters. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/9 "2003-03-20T13:17:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Great thread! What is the significance of the Hebrew-derived names on the planet Krypton? Jor-El, Kal-El,etc.? Knowing that the originators were Jewish, I wonder how much of this found its way into the characters. Not to mention the Moses-like journey of the infant Kal-el. These points have been raised often in the past. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/10 "2003-03-20T13:31:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > [BTrying to sort all this out is tricky, since I can’t find a simple list of the writer/artist credits for every issue of _Superman_, _Action_ and _Adventure Comics_. \*\* Probably because DC never kept records or put credits. When they were reprinting Superman stories in the early 70s, they often would add the artist’s credit (since you could give a good guess due to the style), but never credited the author, partly because they hadn’t kept track. Through the 70s, though, it appeared that Superman has three main artists: Shuster, Wayne Boring, and Cary Bates, with Kurt Schaffenberger doing things like Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen. You can identify the artist based on his style – Shuster was more cartoony, Boring more stylized, and Bates more realistic. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/11 "2003-03-20T17:40:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RealityChuck \* > \*\*Probably because DC never kept records or put credits. When they were reprinting Superman stories in the early 70s, they often would add the artist’s credit (since you could give a good guess due to the style), but never credited the author, partly because they hadn’t kept track. > > Through the 70s, though, it appeared that Superman has three main artists: Shuster, Wayne Boring, and Cary Bates, with Kurt Schaffenberger doing things like Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen. You can identify the artist based on his style – Shuster was more cartoony, Boring more stylized, and Bates more realistic. \*\* Schaffenberger also did the Mr. and Mrs. Superman segment in Superman Family. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/12 "2003-03-20T18:10:02Z")
Siegel and Shuster created Luthor, but not Lex Luthor. Luthor was a single-named villain, until the early 60s, when he was given the first name of “Lex” (I think in the Superboy issue where the source of their antagonism is revealed because Superboy is the one who accidentally makes teen-aged Luthor bald, but I wouldn’t swear to that.) In any case, the name Lex came in way, way after S&S had left the franchise. ---
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/13 "2003-03-20T18:11:12Z")
> [@](#): > > None of this would be important without Siegel and Schuster’s groundwork, of course. Of course. And I just want to clarify that I’m not attempting to downplay their contributions at all. It looks like they were involved with the title for a lot longer than I’d remembered. Related question, that’s already been touched on: what are the biggest elements of the Superman story that S&S had no involvement in? Sounds like Lana for sure…but other than that? ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/14 "2003-03-20T18:28:23Z")
Cary Bates was/is a writer, not an artist. Luthor got his first name and his “Superboy made me bald” back-story in 1960: [http://theages.superman.ws/History/VersionIII.php](http://theages.superman.ws/History/VersionIII.php) ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/15 "2003-03-20T18:39:43Z")
S&S were fired from Superman in 1947, so anything after that was dreamed up by others. I believe the basic mythology – shot as a baby from a rocket, parents Jor-El and Lara – came after S&S left; **Brian Ekers’s** post seems to confirm this. The names of Ma and Pa Kent (Martha and Jonathan) came later, since the Superman TV show had their names as “Sarah” and “Eben.” Indeed, most of the Superboy mythos had nothing to do with S&S. Similarly, Braniac, the Bizarros, Red Kryptonite (and all the other colors), Kandor, Lori Lemaris (and the “LL” motif), and Supergirl all came later. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/16 "2003-03-20T18:40:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wumpus \* > \*\*Cary Bates was/is a writer, not an artist. > > Luthor got his first name and his “Superboy made me bald” back-story in 1960: > > [http://theages.superman.ws/History/VersionIII.php](http://theages.superman.ws/History/VersionIII.php) \*\* :smack: You’re right. I meant Curt Swan. How could I forget one of my favorite comic book artists? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Asylum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@Asylum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asylum)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/17 "2003-03-20T19:10:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Krokodil \* > **Kryptonite was created by Dorothy Woolfolk, according to the March 2001 issue of Comic Book Artist (P.6).** Not that I wouldn’t be surprised if it was completely overlooked by everyone that a woman created kryptonite, but what exactly does that article say and does it give a source? Just curious.\*\* > [@](#): > > The most popular version of Supergirl was created by Otto Binder in the late 50s (He had created Mary Marvel about 15 years earlier). Morgan Edge, the mildly evil publisher of the Daily Planet, was created in 1970 by Jack Kirby. Legion of Superheroes (the 30th Century superhero club Superboy joined) was created by, I think, Mort Weisenger.\*\* That book I referenced above doesn’t give who exactly created the LoSH, but it states that Otto Binder wrote it while Weisinger edited, and [this](http://www.toonopedia.com/legion.htm) site lists them as co-creators. Also the book claims that Binder and Weisinger were co-creators on Supergirl as well.\*\* > [@](#): > > None of this would be important without Siegel and Schuster’s groundwork, of course. \*\* Good point. I’ve also come to the conclusion that DC shoulda keep better records all those years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/18 "2003-03-20T19:25:49Z")
Siegel and Shuster created the basic origin mythology, including Jor-El (or Jor-L.) The full origin was first told in 1939. It’s just that it first appeared in a newspaper strip, not in a comic book: [http://theages.superman.ws/History/VersionI.php](http://theages.superman.ws/History/VersionI.php) That site is a goldmine of Superman information, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/19 "2003-03-21T10:30:08Z")
Incidentally, I looked it up: the first appearance of the magical 5th-dimensional prankster Mr. Mxyztplk (spelling later modified to Mxyzptlk) was in Superman #30, 1944, written by Jerry Siegel. (originally posted in the [wrong thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=3165450#post3165450)) ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752/20 "2003-03-21T14:32:15Z")
Incidentally, it’s been alleged that Siegel and Shuster partly based Superman (without giving credit) on Philip Wylie’s novel _Gladiator_, which is actually a pretty good book. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-the-superman-mythos-did-siegel-and-shuster-create/162752.md?page=2)