# How much property should churches be allowed to own? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 27, 2018, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885 "2018-05-27T02:57:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/21 "2018-05-27T17:34:05Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > In a country that claims to separate church and state, the only correct balance is secular 100, religious 0. That’s actually not correct. Separate church and state actually implies something very different with regards to relative power structure between institutions. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/22 "2018-05-27T17:36:38Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s actually not correct. Separate church and state actually implies something very different with regards to relative power structure between institutions. Okay, so what religiously based laws would you advocate for? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/23 "2018-05-27T18:50:46Z")
Again separation doesn’t mean institution A has 100% of societal power. It means that to some extent institutions are shielded from each other. Concerning laws based on religion? All sorts of laws are derived from ancient moral codes. Even the idea of intrinsic, natural rights to a large degree is based on an appeal to the divine. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/24 "2018-05-27T19:05:27Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Concerning laws based on religion? All sorts of laws are derived from ancient moral codes. Most of those ancient moral codes precede most existing religions. Possibly all of all of them. You cannot base a law on a religious principle unless that principle is unique to a given religion. Which does not leave much. If you have religion-based laws, they should be specific to that one religion and its adherents and not apply to anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/25 "2018-05-27T19:15:58Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Most of those ancient moral codes precede most existing religions. Possibly all of all of them. You cannot base a law on a religious principle unless that principle is unique to a given religion. Which does not leave much. If you have religion-based laws, they should be specific to that one religion and its adherents and not apply to anyone else. Why does it have to be unique to that religion? And if it has to be unique to be considered religious and not from a general, traditional, moral code and there isn’t that much uniqueness as you claim then what is the worry? ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/26 "2018-05-27T19:23:10Z")
The exemption given to religious groups is not primarily financial. The true exemption, the one that really counts and is what drives the relatively minor financial perks, is that they are socially exempted from having to justify their beliefs and statements. U.S. Christians are automatically treated with the kind of deference that Muslims vocally demanded from French and Danish cartoonists (who quite rightly stood their ground). American cartoonists aren’t publishing pictures of God with his head up his holy ass ignoring the troubles of the world, and there’s a lot wrong with that fact. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/27 "2018-05-27T19:44:47Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Again separation doesn’t mean institution A has 100% of societal power. It means that to some extent institutions are shielded from each other. > > Concerning laws based on religion? All sorts of laws are derived from ancient moral codes. Even the idea of intrinsic, natural rights to a large degree is based on an appeal to the divine. I’ve always thought that the appeal to natural rights was a bit of an odd one, anyway. That only works if there is a divine that will protect your rights. Otherwise, it is just a social convention where we agree to respect each other’s rights. So, I don’t really see that as a good justification to base secular codes on religious texts. Religious codes are arbitrary. In the same set of commandments that tells us not to kill, we are also told that we have to take saturdays (later arbitrarily changed to sundays) off. A secular law is one that can be shown to have a reason for existing. We have laws against harming others because we don’t want to be harmed ourselves. We can justify those laws secualry. When you make laws based on religion, they don’t need to be justified. “It says so in the bible” is all the justification that is needed to impose religious laws. The point of shielding is to allow people to worship, or not, as they like, and not to have someone else’s religion forced upon them. As such, yes, religion should have 0 input into secular affairs. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/28 "2018-05-28T03:03:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **DavidwithanR** : > > American cartoonists aren’t publishing pictures of God with his head up his holy ass ignoring the troubles of the world, and there’s a lot wrong with that fact. Not familiar with the work of Gary Larson? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/29 "2018-05-28T04:02:47Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > American cartoonists aren’t publishing pictures of God with his head up his holy ass ignoring the troubles of the world, and there’s a lot wrong with that fact. All I’ll say is that a simple Google image search (search term: anti-christian political cartoon) proves that this isn’t the case at all. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/30 "2018-05-28T04:48:27Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I really want to make another sign that says “As we forgive those who trespass against us” and put that under the “No Trespassing” sign. And if God was here, He’d tell you to your face, “Man, you’re some kinda sinner.” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/31 "2018-05-28T09:42:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just churches, or all organizations that operate under 501( c)(3)? Just churches and other religious organisations. There’s a clear category difference between churches and other 501( c)(3) organisations, as the legislative framework itself makes clear by having some separate operating conditions, as well as registration requirements, for churches. IMO, if churches want their charitable or educational work to be tax exempt, they should incorporate and register those as separate organisations which should meet all the conditions for tax exemption. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/32 "2018-05-28T13:12:50Z")
That would be a violation of the First Amendment, so it is a non-starter. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/33 "2018-05-28T13:23:46Z")
It would be holding churches to the same standard as any other organization. How is that a violation of the First Amendment? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/34 "2018-05-28T13:30:07Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > The exemption given to religious groups is not primarily financial. The true exemption, the one that really counts and is what drives the relatively minor financial perks, is that they are socially exempted from having to justify their beliefs and statements. U.S. Christians are automatically treated with the kind of deference that Muslims vocally demanded from French and Danish cartoonists (who quite rightly stood their ground). > > American cartoonists aren’t publishing pictures of God with his head up his holy ass ignoring the troubles of the world, and there’s a lot wrong with that fact. That is not so, as evidenced by the responses here. Religion is not even remotely shielded from criticism in this country. As with anything, the limit of what you’re willing to say is dictated by the heat you’re going to generate and your willingness to endure the criticism you get from the people exercising their right to free speech while criticizing yours. Have at it. Go as far as you dare. Just don’t pretend you didn’t provoke the response you’re going to get. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/35 "2018-05-28T13:36:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Just churches and other religious organisations. There’s a clear category difference between churches and other 501( c)(3) organisations, as the legislative framework itself makes clear by having some separate operating conditions, as well as registration requirements, for churches. IMO, if churches want their charitable or educational work to be tax exempt, they should incorporate and register those as separate organisations which should meet all the conditions for tax exemption. OK, with that further explanation it makes more sense. The original way you framed it made it sound like they should not be allowed tax exempt status at all. > [@Shodan](#): > > That would be a violation of the First Amendment, so it is a non-starter. > > Regards, > Shodan I’m not so sure about that. It just treats Churches like any other organization. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/36 "2018-05-28T14:44:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It would be holding churches to the same standard as any other organization. How is that a violation of the First Amendment? Because singling out one kind of non-profit for special treatment because it is religious is a violation of the free exercise clause. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/37 "2018-05-28T14:49:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because singling out one kind of non-profit for special treatment because it is religious is a violation of the free exercise clause. What are the precedent cases establishing that? . ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/38 "2018-05-28T15:06:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That would be a violation of the First Amendment, so it is a non-starter. Would it? Where does the First Amendment say “Churches shall pay no taxes”? “Free exercise” doesn’t mean what you seem to think it does. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/39 "2018-05-28T15:09:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because singling out one kind of non-profit for special treatment because it is religious is a violation of the free exercise clause. You’d have an argument if it was the First that established non-profits in the first place. But that was separate law, and it’s easy enough to say “No, actually, we now realise churches and non-profits are, in fact, separate classes of things altogether, and this law should apply only to the latter” and have that be perfectly within both the letter and the spirit of the First. Your argument amounts to “churches should be non-profits just because they have been non-profits” and that’s a weak argument. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/40 "2018-05-28T15:32:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because singling out one kind of non-profit for special treatment because it is religious is a violation of the free exercise clause. > > Regards, > Shodan They are “singled out” by treating them like everyone else? Ok… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885.md?page=3)