# How much property should churches be allowed to own? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 27, 2018, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885 "2018-05-27T02:57:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/81 "2018-06-01T14:42:53Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That is a very odd conclusion. It would be like saying “So, you believe that water is wet?” > > The tax money that comes out of my pocket for property taxes, sales taxes, income taxes, and other taxes does not belong to me after I have signed the check to the govt. I get a bit of a say in the use of it when I vote, but that doesn’t mean that it belongs to me. Do you believe otherwise? > > And I assume that by saying that the govt and public give you nothing, that you don’t drive on public roads, don’t use any public utilities, don’t eat any food from public stores or restaurants? You don’t benefit from having a publicly educated population, you don’t benefit from local police and fire protection services? > > Even if you are never leave or use anything off your patch of privately owned land, it is still the govt that enforces your right to property ownership, preventing me from just coming and taking it. > > [Here’s a brief documentary on the benefits of govt.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tvauOJMHo) (Only 0:01:22 long) I believe that my money and property is mine. Statists believe that all money and property belong to the government, and when the state doesn’t take all the money and property in my possession they have “given” it to me by taking it from someone else. I pay taxes for infrastructure and public services. But my exchanges with stores and restaurants don’t apply here. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/82 "2018-06-01T16:09:30Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > The Sierra Club, however, still has to service the property taxes on their offices and any property they might hold, which a church does not. False. If they can argue that they hold property for religious, charitable, hospital, or scientific purposes they do not have to pay taxes in California. [http://www.boe.ca.gov/info/VirtualSeminars/nonprofit\_prop\_tax\_exemption.html](http://www.boe.ca.gov/info/VirtualSeminars/nonprofit_prop_tax_exemption.html) > [@](#): > > What is the Welfare Exemption? > The California Legislature has the authority to exempt property (1) used exclusively for religious, hospital, or charitable purposes, and (2) owned or held in trust by nonprofit organizations operating for those purposes. This exemption is known as the Welfare Exemption and was first adopted by voters as a constitutional amendment on > November 7, 1944. When the Legislature enacted section 214 of the Revenue and Taxation Code to implement the Constitutional provision, a fourth purpose—scientific—was added to the three mentioned in the Constitution. And we can look at the list of organizations in California who have filed, and find the Sierra Club: [http://www.boe.ca.gov/proptaxes/pdf/OCC2018group4.pdf](http://www.boe.ca.gov/proptaxes/pdf/OCC2018group4.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/83 "2018-06-01T17:24:04Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > What many people do not understand is that to a Christian who reads Scripture, the two are inseparable. The church is there to build up and equip the saints for good works, and one cannot be a Christian without being compelled by Scripture and the Holy Spirit to do good works. I was a lutheran, so YMMV, but I was always taught that the church was the people, not the building. If what you are saying is that someone cannot be a Christian without having tax free structures, then you have very little faith indeed. > [@CelticKnot](#): > > I believe that my money and property is mine. Statists believe that all money and property belong to the government, and when the state doesn’t take all the money and property in my possession they have “given” it to me by taking it from someone else. Excluded middle there. There is a wide gulf between “What’s mine is mine”, and “everything belongs to the state.” Look around, our country, and pretty much every country lives in that gulf. > [@](#): > > I pay taxes for infrastructure and public services. But my exchanges with stores and restaurants don’t apply here. So, the food that you buy is not subsidized by agricultural supports? It is not transported across roads that are paid for by tax dollars? It is not inspected to be free from contamination or disease by the govt? When you eat in a restaurant, that restaurant is not inspected by the health department to ensure that they are not serving dangerous food? There really are very few things that you do from day to day that do not take advantage of at least one, and often several, govt services. These are services that you take for granted and never notice, and so think that you don’t need. OTOH, the recarpeting and reupholstering job you just did in the church that you claim to need in order to be able to worship your god does absolutely no good to anyone except members of your church, and yet, it is the people who do not follow your religion that have to make up for the taxes to subsidize it. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/84 "2018-06-01T17:48:54Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > OTOH, the recarpeting and reupholstering job you just did in the church that you claim to need in order to be able to worship your god does absolutely no good to anyone except members of your church, and yet, it is the people who do not follow your religion that have to make up for the taxes to subsidize it. Hmm - the non-members seem to appreciate it, as did the contractors we paid to do the work. My church is open to all who wish to attend, not just members. It is also open to a host of organizations. Just this week: AL-ANON AA Local women’s choir The pre-school we operate is open to the community (with heavily subsidized discounts for the poor) The counseling center we operate is open to the community (also heavily subsidized to provide trained access to to psychologists). Looks like two weddings this weekend too, and neither one appears to be of members of our congregation. In a couple of weeks we will host families to stay on the church property in our fellowship hall for a week. We do this to the maximum allowed by our community’s laws. We do not pay property taxes in California, true. I already posted the link to the California laws on who is exempt from property taxes. We don’t make a profit - so even if you added an income tax to our non-profit, you would not collect a dime. Our minister pays income taxes, as do all of the people we employ at the church. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/85 "2018-06-01T18:41:07Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Hmm - the non-members seem to appreciate it, as did the contractors we paid to do the work. > > My church is open to all who wish to attend, not just members. It is also open to a host of organizations. Just this week: My contractor is appreciating the money that I am giving him for my exaponsion, too. Does that mean I should get to do it tax free? And by open to all who wish to attend, that means open to attend services, right? If I just came in and used your basketball court with my friends, you’d probably ask me to leave, would you not? > [@](#): > > AL-ANON > AA Assuming that these groups do not pay a stipend to the church to have their meetings there, then that could qualify as charity work. > [@](#): > > Local women’s choir That is a benefit to the local women who attend the choir. > [@](#): > > The pre-school we operate is open to the community (with heavily subsidized discounts for the poor) So, you are charging for it, just a reduced rate for those who have been means tested to need assistance? Sure, you should get a tax deduction for the charitable subsidy. > [@](#): > > The counseling center we operate is open to the community (also heavily subsidized to provide trained access to to psychologists). For free to all? > [@](#): > > Looks like two weddings this weekend too, and neither one appears to be of members of our congregation. I don’t know about your church, but the church I attended did charge rent to outside weddings. Would your church allow a same sex wedding? > [@](#): > > In a couple of weeks we will host families to stay on the church property in our fellowship hall for a week. We do this to the maximum allowed by our community’s laws. I am not sure what this means. Is this a homeless shelter you are running, or is it a retreat for people that already have homes? > [@](#): > > We do not pay property taxes in California, true. I already posted the link to the California laws on who is exempt from property taxes. > We don’t make a profit - so even if you added an income tax to our non-profit, you would not collect a dime. Business pay taxes on capital improvements like building and upgrades. Any money put into improvements of the building or property would be taxed in a secular environment. > [@](#): > > Our minister pays income taxes, as do all of the people we employ at the church. Does he pay income taxes on the rent or fair value on his parsonage? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/86 "2018-06-01T18:55:21Z")
I stink at multi quoting. If you don’t want to pay property taxes, check the laws in your state to qualify. Here in California its simply - scientific, charitable, hospital, church. As for the rest… Yes, we charge a cleaning and facilities fee for use of our spaces. It is nominal at best, and nothing compared to what it would take for a similar facility at one of the local hotels. We don’t have a basketball court. The women’s choir is not limited to our members. So it is a benefit to the members of the community who are members of that choir. In other words, community benefit. We run a temporary homeless shelter - apparently that was not clear. Our minister pays property taxes on the home he owns, same as the rest of the employees of the church who own. We have held LGBT weddings, our minister has officiated at them, I have attended them, and we ordain LGBT as well. So do you want to tax all non-profits, or just the churches? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/87 "2018-06-01T19:57:35Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I stink at multi quoting. > > If you don’t want to pay property taxes, check the laws in your state to qualify. Here in California its simply - scientific, charitable, hospital, church. Right, the first 3 contribute to society, and the last is… church. > [@](#): > > As for the rest… > > Yes, we charge a cleaning and facilities fee for use of our spaces. It is nominal at best, and nothing compared to what it would take for a similar facility at one of the local hotels. Well, of course, but I could also run it in my basement for a nominal fee as well. But I would still ahve to pay taxes on the proerty that it is held in. > [@](#): > > We don’t have a basketball court. Many churches do. Do you have no recreational facilities? > [@](#): > > The women’s choir is not limited to our members. So it is a benefit to the members of the community who are members of that choir. In other words, community benefit. IT is still limited to those who wish to participate in women’s choir. Is it open to your neighborhood garage band? > [@](#): > > We run a temporary homeless shelter - apparently that was not clear. I wasn’t sure, as my old church did retreats at the property. > [@](#): > > Our minister pays property taxes on the home he owns, same as the rest of the employees of the church who own. I asked about income taxes. [He shouldn’t have to.](https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/self-employment-taxes/ministers-and-taxes/L2EiSFEMT) > [@](#): > > Ministers can exclude from their income a rental allowance or the fair rental value of a parsonage that is provided to them as pay for their services. Different states have different rules for property tax on parsonages. I don’t know about California’s, but in Ohio, they don’t have to pay. Also, if he doesn’t want to pay social security or medicare, he doesn’t have to either. > [@](#): > > If you are conscientiously opposed to public insurance because of individual religious considerations, or you are opposed because of the principles of the religious denomination you belong to, you can claim an exemption from the self-employment tax by filing Form 4361 with the IRS. > [@](#): > > We have held LGBT weddings, our minister has officiated at them, I have attended them, and we ordain LGBT as well. Very forward thinking. No snark. I did ask if they charged for the weddings, though. > [@](#): > > So do you want to tax all non-profits, or just the churches? Neither. I want groups to pay taxes on things that benefit them, and have to show that the deductions that they are turning in are due to charitable contributions, not just under the blanket of religious exemptions. From what you have said, it sounds like your church does use many of its resources for charitable needs, so if it deducted all those, it wouldn’t be paying much income tax on capital improvements or benefits for members. There are many other churches out there that are not so socially conscious, and use their status to personally enrich themselves, while contributing little or nothing to the community, and in fact, adding to the divisions in the community through discrimination. Just like in my business, there are many things that I don’t pay taxes on, and there are things that I do pay taxes on, and there are things that I pay deferred taxes on. It all has to be itemized and determined whether or not it is a taxable expense. There is much in the excluded middle of “tax[ing] all non-profits, or just churches”. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/88 "2018-06-11T16:23:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But it applies to every federal law Congress enacts. And the issue here is federal law that Congress made, so THIS ISSUE is one the RFRA touches. > [@Bricker](#): > > The federal RFRA requires that no law Congress passes create a substantial burden on religious exercise as applied to any person, unless the government demonstrates that application of the burden to the person is the least restrictive means of furthering a compelling governmental interest. Can you address this comment? > [@eschereal](#): > > And it is merely an Act of Congress, which could be reversed by a subsequent Congress without the troublesome hurdles of an Amendment. Congress could simply add a line to a bill that “the provisions of the RFRA are not applicable to this act” or whatever legal wording is need to exempt it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/89 "2018-06-11T17:49:39Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Can you address this comment? > > Congress could simply add a line to a bill that “the provisions of the RFRA are not applicable to this act” or whatever legal wording is need to exempt it. The answer to that is: Absolutely right. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/90 "2018-06-12T08:14:30Z")
It depends on the religion. The Church of Scientology is all about contracts and property rights, so it’s consistent with their beliefs to hold lots of property. The Christians are supposed to lay up for themselves treasures in Heaven, so they probably shouldn’t have any real estate at all. 😉 As far as the law is concerned, churches should be categorized the same way other clubs and corporations are. Some are for-profit, some aren’t. But being a “church” should mean next to nothing; the term is too abused. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885/91 "2018-06-12T08:21:43Z")
Wait, does that mean that Hobby Lobby should have the same ethical “freedoms” from certain anti-discrimination laws as a Particular Baptist church? No, I suppose not. But a non-religious charity might be entitled to that kind of freedom, I suppose? I don’t know, man. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-property-should-churches-be-allowed-to-own/814885.md?page=4)