I believe that my money and property is mine. Statists believe that all money and property belong to the government, and when the state doesn’t take all the money and property in my possession they have “given” it to me by taking it from someone else.
I pay taxes for infrastructure and public services. But my exchanges with stores and restaurants don’t apply here.
False.
If they can argue that they hold property for religious, charitable, hospital, or scientific purposes they do not have to pay taxes in California.
http://www.boe.ca.gov/info/VirtualSeminars/nonprofit_prop_tax_exemption.html
And we can look at the list of organizations in California who have filed, and find the Sierra Club:
I was a lutheran, so YMMV, but I was always taught that the church was the people, not the building.
If what you are saying is that someone cannot be a Christian without having tax free structures, then you have very little faith indeed.
Excluded middle there. There is a wide gulf between “What’s mine is mine”, and “everything belongs to the state.” Look around, our country, and pretty much every country lives in that gulf.
So, the food that you buy is not subsidized by agricultural supports? It is not transported across roads that are paid for by tax dollars? It is not inspected to be free from contamination or disease by the govt? When you eat in a restaurant, that restaurant is not inspected by the health department to ensure that they are not serving dangerous food?
There really are very few things that you do from day to day that do not take advantage of at least one, and often several, govt services. These are services that you take for granted and never notice, and so think that you don’t need.
OTOH, the recarpeting and reupholstering job you just did in the church that you claim to need in order to be able to worship your god does absolutely no good to anyone except members of your church, and yet, it is the people who do not follow your religion that have to make up for the taxes to subsidize it.
Hmm - the non-members seem to appreciate it, as did the contractors we paid to do the work.
My church is open to all who wish to attend, not just members. It is also open to a host of organizations. Just this week:
AL-ANON
AA
Local women’s choir
The pre-school we operate is open to the community (with heavily subsidized discounts for the poor)
The counseling center we operate is open to the community (also heavily subsidized to provide trained access to to psychologists).
Looks like two weddings this weekend too, and neither one appears to be of members of our congregation.
In a couple of weeks we will host families to stay on the church property in our fellowship hall for a week. We do this to the maximum allowed by our community’s laws.
We do not pay property taxes in California, true. I already posted the link to the California laws on who is exempt from property taxes.
We don’t make a profit - so even if you added an income tax to our non-profit, you would not collect a dime.
Our minister pays income taxes, as do all of the people we employ at the church.
My contractor is appreciating the money that I am giving him for my exaponsion, too. Does that mean I should get to do it tax free?
And by open to all who wish to attend, that means open to attend services, right? If I just came in and used your basketball court with my friends, you’d probably ask me to leave, would you not?
Assuming that these groups do not pay a stipend to the church to have their meetings there, then that could qualify as charity work.
That is a benefit to the local women who attend the choir.
So, you are charging for it, just a reduced rate for those who have been means tested to need assistance? Sure, you should get a tax deduction for the charitable subsidy.
For free to all?
I don’t know about your church, but the church I attended did charge rent to outside weddings. Would your church allow a same sex wedding?
I am not sure what this means. Is this a homeless shelter you are running, or is it a retreat for people that already have homes?
Business pay taxes on capital improvements like building and upgrades. Any money put into improvements of the building or property would be taxed in a secular environment.
Does he pay income taxes on the rent or fair value on his parsonage?
I stink at multi quoting.
If you don’t want to pay property taxes, check the laws in your state to qualify. Here in California its simply - scientific, charitable, hospital, church.
As for the rest…
Yes, we charge a cleaning and facilities fee for use of our spaces. It is nominal at best, and nothing compared to what it would take for a similar facility at one of the local hotels.
We don’t have a basketball court.
The women’s choir is not limited to our members. So it is a benefit to the members of the community who are members of that choir. In other words, community benefit.
We run a temporary homeless shelter - apparently that was not clear.
Our minister pays property taxes on the home he owns, same as the rest of the employees of the church who own.
We have held LGBT weddings, our minister has officiated at them, I have attended them, and we ordain LGBT as well.
So do you want to tax all non-profits, or just the churches?
Right, the first 3 contribute to society, and the last is… church.
Well, of course, but I could also run it in my basement for a nominal fee as well. But I would still ahve to pay taxes on the proerty that it is held in.
Many churches do. Do you have no recreational facilities?
IT is still limited to those who wish to participate in women’s choir. Is it open to your neighborhood garage band?
I wasn’t sure, as my old church did retreats at the property.
I asked about income taxes. He shouldn’t have to.
Different states have different rules for property tax on parsonages. I don’t know about California’s, but in Ohio, they don’t have to pay.
Also, if he doesn’t want to pay social security or medicare, he doesn’t have to either.
Very forward thinking. No snark.
I did ask if they charged for the weddings, though.
Neither. I want groups to pay taxes on things that benefit them, and have to show that the deductions that they are turning in are due to charitable contributions, not just under the blanket of religious exemptions.
From what you have said, it sounds like your church does use many of its resources for charitable needs, so if it deducted all those, it wouldn’t be paying much income tax on capital improvements or benefits for members. There are many other churches out there that are not so socially conscious, and use their status to personally enrich themselves, while contributing little or nothing to the community, and in fact, adding to the divisions in the community through discrimination.
Just like in my business, there are many things that I don’t pay taxes on, and there are things that I do pay taxes on, and there are things that I pay deferred taxes on. It all has to be itemized and determined whether or not it is a taxable expense.
There is much in the excluded middle of “tax[ing] all non-profits, or just churches”.
Can you address this comment?
Congress could simply add a line to a bill that “the provisions of the RFRA are not applicable to this act” or whatever legal wording is need to exempt it.
The answer to that is: Absolutely right.
It depends on the religion. The Church of Scientology is all about contracts and property rights, so it’s consistent with their beliefs to hold lots of property. The Christians are supposed to lay up for themselves treasures in Heaven, so they probably shouldn’t have any real estate at all. 
As far as the law is concerned, churches should be categorized the same way other clubs and corporations are. Some are for-profit, some aren’t. But being a “church” should mean next to nothing; the term is too abused.
Wait, does that mean that Hobby Lobby should have the same ethical “freedoms” from certain anti-discrimination laws as a Particular Baptist church? No, I suppose not. But a non-religious charity might be entitled to that kind of freedom, I suppose?
I don’t know, man.