# How much, REALLY, are we helping by recycling plastic bags? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 15, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-really-are-we-helping-by-recycling-plastic-bags/335736 "2005-12-15T16:09:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-really-are-we-helping-by-recycling-plastic-bags/335736/21 "2005-12-17T13:14:17Z")
> [@](#): > > I also read it takes 1 quart of oil to make a plastic bag (material + manufacturing). This can’t be, there are 42 gal/barrel of oil, at a cost of lets say $50/bar that would be $0.29 per bag, even when oil was half that the cost would be $0.15/bag. No way would suppermarkets go for this, where a $20 order can sometimes fill 6 bags, sometimes double bagged. We would go back to paper overnight. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-really-are-we-helping-by-recycling-plastic-bags/335736/22 "2005-12-17T13:26:35Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > You know there are major issues with Garbage incinerators I hope. > Lots of heavy metals going into the air. > Highly Toxic Ash left over. > Little thing like that. > > Read up on it a little please. Getting back to this, the is the kind of knee jerk reaction which has put us at the mercy of the middle east for their oil instead of using nuke or other alternative power. What you claim does not apply to modern waste to energy plants, they could apply to old style incineration, which is just like pit burning. > [@](#): > > Modern waste-to-energy plants should not be confused with the trash incinerators that were commonly used until a few decades ago. Those plants usually did not remove hazardous or recyclable materials before burning… > …Modern waste-to-energy plants are designed to reduce the formation of new pollutants in the furnace, such as NOx, SOx and particulates, and to destroy pollutants already present in the trash. Pollution control measures, such as baghouses, scrubbers and electrostatic precipitators capture most of the pollution not destroyed by combustion… > …the plants allow the previously unrecycleable metals integrated into products to be captured. The metals are collected from the bottom of the furnace and sold to foundries… > …Waste-to-energy plants emit more pollution than natural gas plants, but less than coal plants,… from [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trash-to-energy\_plant](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trash-to-energy_plant) Also > [@](#): > > Ash residue from waste-to-energy facilities represents about 10% by volume of the original trash.\*\* The ash is tested in accordance with strict state and federal leaching tests and is consistently shown to be safe for land disposal and reuse.\*\* A from [http://www.wte.org/waste.html](http://www.wte.org/waste.html) So again I state that converting the bag to electricity is a good use for used bags. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-really-are-we-helping-by-recycling-plastic-bags/335736/23 "2005-12-17T13:48:56Z")
Showing once again why Wikipedia is not always a good reference. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Waste-to-energy plants emit more pollution than natural gas plants, but less than coal plants, which produce half of the electricity in the United States. What’s the Cite that Wikipedia is using? Where do they come up with that? What limitations are on that phrase? Are they comparing a BACT waste plant with a grandfathered coal plant? How are they defining “pollution” - what specifically are they talking about? Air/water/ash/scrubber sludge? What size class? Are they talking about NSPS, Title V, SO2, NOx, CO2, VOC, Hg…? There are so many variables here, but I sincerely doubt that on any equal footing that any mixed-waste WTE plant is cleaner than a coal plant using the same BACT. A targeted waste plant _may_ be, depending upon the waste. > [@kanicbird](#): > > Let me assure you I have and many waste to energy plants are cleaner then coal power plants. Which installations, exactly? Compared to which coal plants, exactly? And by what measures? What basis is your statement made on? Note I’m not saying you are _wrong_, but that your statement is so broad that it can just as easily be wrong as right. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-really-are-we-helping-by-recycling-plastic-bags/335736/24 "2005-12-17T14:11:45Z")
Ireland introduced a 15c charge for plastic bags a few years ago. This money then goes to the government for environmental projects. It is estimated that in the first year since the levy was introduced plastic bag waste decreased by about 90%, and several million were raised by the levy. People are encouraged to use long life bags, recyle bags and to bring cloth bags for grocery shopping. I can’t say if it’s saving oil, but it has reduced rubbish and definitely changed people’s habits. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-really-are-we-helping-by-recycling-plastic-bags/335736/25 "2005-12-17T15:00:25Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > There are so many variables here, but I sincerely doubt that on any equal footing that any mixed-waste WTE plant is cleaner than a coal plant using the same BACT. A targeted waste plant _may_ be, depending upon the waste. I admit there are a lot of variables here but 2 factors do support this, 1 coal plants fall through a loophole in the CAA (the grandfathered you mentioned ) - and these plants are being opperated long past their design life becasue it is cheaper then building new plants w/ modern emmision equipment. So the average coal plant is pretty darn old., 2 Waste to energy plants have to be clean because of the public perception of them being dirty, they have some of the strictest requirements of power generators. So if you have to compair a coal to WtE plant, you are going to compair a older coal plant (because that’s what we have thanks to the CAA), to modern WtE. It’s not that a targeted plant may, it is that mostly they are cleaner - becasue they have to be. Take into account other factors as a stable ash, 90% volume reduction, no methane gas from landfills, increased recycling, including composite materials that can’t be recovered in any other way, and a renewable resource and WtE is very beneficial to modern day society and even more so when landfill space is lacking or in areas where landfills can contaminate groundwater. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-really-are-we-helping-by-recycling-plastic-bags/335736/26 "2005-12-17T15:16:34Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Waste to energy plants have to be clean because of the public perception of them being dirty, they have some of the strictest requirements of power generators. What specific parts of the CAA and its Amendments require tighter emissions controls on a new WTE plant than a new coal plant? AFAIK there are none, although if the waste is considered “hazardous” (as in medical, or some superceeding other definition) then there are other permitting and inspection requirements. But in terms of air toxics, what exact requirements for a new WTE plant are stricter than for a new coal plant? > [@](#): > > Take into account other factors as a stable ash Are you saying coal ash is unstable? I would actually say that coal ash is much more stable than WTE ash, given the work I’ve done with cement plants and kilns who buy coal plant ash - almost all of which will not even accept a bid from a WTE plant’s ash. What do you mean by stable - ammonia outgasing, heavy metal leaching, or something else? > [@](#): > > …90% volume reduction, no methane gas from landfills, increased recycling, including composite materials that can’t be recovered in any other way, and a renewable resource and WtE is very beneficial to modern day society and even more so when landfill space is lacking or in areas where landfills can contaminate groundwater. I don’t argue with you that WTE can be a good energy source in some instances. I think the landfill space issue is a political one, not a real engineering one. By “targeted” I meant take a new BACT coal plant, and a new BACT WTE plant, and have equal emissions controls on them, and the coal plant is likely to have lower emissions unless the waste is targeted to a specific item, such as wood waste, plastics, auto seat fluff, diapers, or agricultural waste (which I myself would not lump in with the rest, but it counts). ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-really-are-we-helping-by-recycling-plastic-bags/335736/27 "2005-12-17T16:52:58Z")
> [@Imasquare](#): > > But don’t you then have to purchase plastic garbage bags? About 1 out of 10 times that I shop, I forget to take the big canvas totes, and I get paper bags, which fit the kitchen can perfectly. All the rest of the little wastebaskets are linerless. I line my big garbage can in the garage with 60 gallon bags, usually one a week. Our city’s system calls for putting all the recyclable stuff in 33 gallon blue bags. Usually, we send out more recycle stuff than the other kind. Our city recycles glass, aluminum, steel, paper, and plastics 1 and 2. Grocery plastic is mostly type 2. The number is in a little triangle symbol at the bottom of the container. ---
**Author:** ![jasonh300](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/46a35a/32.png) [@jasonh300](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasonh300)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-really-are-we-helping-by-recycling-plastic-bags/335736/28 "2005-12-17T17:09:04Z")
> [@Gymnopithys](#): > > I also read it takes 1 quart of oil to make a plastic bag (material + manufacturing). I’d need to see a cite for that to believe it. I call bullshit on this one. I"m sure you misread this. It wouldn’t be cost effective to manufacture plastic bags if this was true. A quart of oil at Auto Zone costs about $1.29 nowadays. I realize that’s refined oil but still, the number of plastic garbage bags my wife took home from Wal-Mart last week would equal enough oil to take care of all 3 of my cars oil changes for 5 years. ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-really-are-we-helping-by-recycling-plastic-bags/335736/29 "2005-12-18T09:43:57Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This can’t be, there are 42 gal/barrel of oil, at a cost of lets say $50/bar that would be $0.29 per bag, even when oil was half that the cost would be $0.15/bag. > > No way would suppermarkets go for this, where a $20 order can sometimes fill 6 bags, sometimes double bagged. We would go back to paper overnight. I also wondered about that. Thanks \*\*kanic, jason \*\* for fixing me up with solid evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-really-are-we-helping-by-recycling-plastic-bags/335736/30 "2005-12-18T10:03:20Z")
Gymnopithys writes: \> I also read it takes 1 quart of oil to make a plastic bag (material + \> manufacturing). The supermarket I shop at gives customers a credit of .03 per bag saved when they bring in their own bags. .03 sounds to me like a reasonable guess at the cost of a supermarket plastic bag. It may be a little low, since the bag credit has stayed at $.03 a bag for at least fifteen years now. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-really-are-we-helping-by-recycling-plastic-bags/335736/31 "2005-12-18T17:32:36Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > What specific parts of the CAA and its Amendments require tighter emissions controls on a new WTE plant than a new coal plant? IIRC and correct me if I’m wrong coal plants are allowed to buy poluition credits, this does nto apply to W2E. Here are some interesting graphs of emisions per unit energy of different power sources: [http://www.dswa.com/programs/programs\_wastetoenergy\_4.htm](http://www.dswa.com/programs/programs_wastetoenergy_4.htm) All referenced on the notes section. For most emmisions on the graph coal is far ahead on the emissions mentioned. Again I admit that coal has that loophole which do effect the results. Also from the EPA website: > [@](#): > > The average emission rates in the United States from coal-fired generation are: 2,249 lbs/MWh of carbon dioxide, 13 lbs/MWh of sulfur dioxide, and 6 lbs/MWh of nitrogen oxides.3 > he average air emission rates in the United States from municipal solid waste-fired generation are: 2988 lbs/MWh of carbon dioxide, 0.8 lbs/MWh of sulfur dioxide, and 5.4 lbs/MWh of nitrogen oxides.5 [http://www.epa.gov/cleanenergy/emissions.htm](http://www.epa.gov/cleanenergy/emissions.htm) There is other info there, but good and bad for both types, but no more hard data. > [@](#): > > Are you saying coal ash is unstable? I would actually say that coal ash is much more stable than WTE ash, given the work I’ve done with cement plants and kilns who buy coal plant ash - almost all of which will not even accept a bid from a WTE plant’s ash I’m not saying coal ask is unstable, just W2E is stable, also about the same percentage 10%, and also used in some applications (below). Also is non-toxic, well fly ash is but when mixed with the other ash the result is non-toxic. I think the reason for many places not even accepting bids is public perception and inexperence w/ usig such ash. > [@](#): > > In many states and several European countries, (W2E) ash is reused in concrete, asphalt, grout, road-base and other construction materials . [http://www.dswa.com/programs/programs\_wastetoenergy\_4.htm](http://www.dswa.com/programs/programs_wastetoenergy_4.htm) > [@](#): > > I think the landfill space issue is a political one, not a real engineering one. Well I do see a good amount of politics in it, but there are issues like the stuff isn’t breaking down as expected, all liners will eventually leak which can cause ground water problems. And due to politics and also population densities there is no landfill options near some population centers. > [@](#): > > By “targeted” I meant take a new BACT coal plant, and a new BACT WTE plant, and have equal emissions controls on them, I would like to see this also, I would expect coal to do worse on some items and better on others. Also same emision controls are a bit of a misnomer here, they have to have different controls due to different fuels. Also has there been any modern coal power plants in major population centers, there are quite a few modern W2E plants in such areas? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-really-are-we-helping-by-recycling-plastic-bags/335736/32 "2005-12-18T18:38:28Z")
More on bag price, via the ad link by google we get prices of the typical grocery bag at about $0.02691 to $0.03749 /bag. > **[Wholesale Packaging Supplies and Products | Paper Mart](https://www.papermart.com/)** > > Paper Mart offers a huge selection of wholesale packaging supplies and products at great prices. Shop Paper Mart today for all of your packaging needs! Which at $0.03/bag and $50/barrel of oil would equate to 0.0252 gal/oil per bag or 1/10th of 1 qt. Now this is not the amount of oil that goes into each bag, just the amount of oil you would have to trade for one bag in a even swap. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-really-are-we-helping-by-recycling-plastic-bags/335736.md?page=1)