# How much say does the father have in abortions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 2, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174 "2011-03-02T05:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/41 "2011-03-02T20:23:50Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > I was just going to say that Si Amigo’s cousin sounds like a stalker who date _raped_ some poor guy. After all it sounds like she got a man drunk for the sole purpose of having sex with him. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I didn’t see any allegation of rape. That’s ridiculous. Besides it sounds like they were both drunk. Yep, but he was drunker; and dumber. His son from his first fling had just turned 17 and his child support was coming to an end just as the her child by him was born. She quit working and home schooled the child; devoting full time to making him as miserable as humanely possible. They were both incredibly hot and good looking when this happened (Kardasion style hot); now both of them look like they been through hell. All I know is “There is a just and righteous God”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/42 "2011-03-02T21:47:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Only after they’re born. I’d like to hear that from some legal type. For instance, let’s assume a jurisdiction where the death of a fetus resulting from a criminal action is in itself an independent crime (I believe it’s the case in some US states). Let’s assume the mother (along with the fetus) is murdered. Couldn’t the father sue for damages for the death of his unborn child? Anyway, we were talking about countries where the husband’s agreement is required for an abortion. Quite obviously, in those countries the husband is presumed to be the father _before_ birth. ---
**Author:** ![lonestar88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@lonestar88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonestar88)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/43 "2011-03-02T21:49:10Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Here in the good ol USA; yes. Thier other choices are to put them up for adoption or be a toal screw up and let them become wards of the state. I’m not an attorney, so I don’t know. What are the rights of adoptive kids to pursue support from their biological parents? How about children born from sperm or egg donors? Do they have a right to support from their biological parents? How about infants left at the fire station, do they have right to support from their biological parents? Also, I’m assuming when you say “their” you mean the parents. Do one or both parents have to consent to adopt out their kid? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/44 "2011-03-02T21:58:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I didn’t see any allegation of rape. That’s ridiculous. Besides it sounds like they were both drunk. That’s never kept _men_ from being accused of rape. Why should it disqualify a woman from the same accusation? It does, I know; but it shouldn’t. What is just when applied to men is apparently unjust when applied to women ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/45 "2011-03-02T22:16:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He also agreed to be responsible for any potential child when he came. Regardless of deception on the part of the woman? If he was drunk (as cited) could the guy make informed consent to this? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/46 "2011-03-02T22:43:52Z")
> [@lonestar88](#): > > …What are the rights of adoptive kids to pursue support from their biological parents? > How about children born from sperm or egg donors? Do they have a right to support from their biological parents? How about infants left at the fire station, do they have right to support from their biological parents?.. No, adoption severs _all_ legal ties between birth parent and offspring. The biological parents are no longer responsible for supporting the child, the adoptive parents are. That is the entire point of adoption. Depending on the jurisdiction and what year the adoption took place they might not have the legal right to know their birth parents’ identity. Ditto for sperm/egg donars _as long the donation was done via a licenced clinic_, and not a “private arrangment”. Indeed alot of sperm is shipped in from anonymous donors overseas (I understand Denmark is a major exporter). “Safe Haven Law” babies are in the same boat as adoptive children, except that since there isn’t any documentation re the birth mother at all they can’t trace her like regular adoptive child might. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/47 "2011-03-02T23:23:29Z")
> [@lonestar88](#): > > Also, I’m assuming when you say “their” you mean the parents. Do one or both parents have to consent to adopt out their kid? Both parents have to be represented in termination or adoption proceedings, and neither parent has the right to give the child up for adoption over the objection of the other. In circumstances where one or both parents may be unknown (such as unknown father or abandonment), locating the parents to notify them of the proceedings may be difficult or impossible, but an attorney representing each parent must be hired and make at least a good faith effort to find the parent and notify them of the proceedings. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/48 "2011-03-03T06:48:30Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > “Giving him a veto” is not the same thing as “making the choice his”. The law could be, for example, that both of them have veto power, so that the abortion would be legal only if both agree to it. In such a case, the choice would neither fully his nor fully hers. If she wants an abortion and he doesn’t, and he can stop her, the choice is his. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/49 "2011-03-03T06:58:00Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > [Davis v.Davis](http://biotech.law.lsu.edu/cases/cloning/davis_v_davis.htm) > > Divorcing couple. Wife wanted custody of frozen emnryos to carry them to term. Husband said no, he’d change his mind and didn’t want chldren with her. Wife said she would donate them to infertile women so they could carry them to term and keep the baby. Husband said no. > > State superior court agreed with hubby; embryos were destroyed. Same decision reached in _Roche v Roche_ here in Ireland last year. Complicated by the fact that the Irish constitution protects the right to life of the “unborn”. The court held that “unborn” meant “in the womb” and not “in a petri dish in a freezer”. In this case the man’s choice carried the day, but as **Diogenes** says it’s a different issue where the embryos aren’t already in the woman’s body. Furthermore, if the court had accepted the woman’s argument that frozen embryos are “unborn”, in a future case where the man wanted them to be born and the woman didn’t, there’s a possibility she could have been compelled to have them implanted in her, which is a pretty horrifying prospect. I didn’t have any problem supporting the decision that was reached. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/50 "2011-03-03T11:35:43Z")
> [@MikeS](#): > > the big exceptions are South Korea and [Japan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Japan#Maternal_Health_Protection_Law). IRC, Japan requires the male partner for most cases. Since the marital status of the woman is self-reported, it’s conceivable (no pun intended) that a married woman could get any male to go along with her to provide consent. Of course, if the husband found out and took exception to it, there would be legal consequences to that. > [@alphaboi867](#): > > Ditto for sperm/egg donars _as long the donation was done via a licenced clinic_, and not a “private arrangment”. Indeed alot of sperm is shipped in from anonymous donors overseas (I understand Denmark is a major exporter). Do you have a cite for the US importing “a lot” of sperm? It was my understanding that this was mostly within the States. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/51 "2011-03-03T13:15:35Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Regardless of deception on the part of the woman? > > If he was drunk (as cited) could the guy make informed consent to this? Yep. Same as for a woman. Lack of consent doesn’t became a thing until you are so drunk that you are physically unable to give consent or resist sex (i.e. you are passed out, unintelligible, etc.) This is the same for men as for women. Is it rape if a guy says “Hey honey, don’t worry about the condom, I’m fixed ?” Of course not, that is absurd. Rape law protects against rape, not your own poor choice of sex partners. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/52 "2011-03-03T15:37:13Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > [Davis v.Davis](http://biotech.law.lsu.edu/cases/cloning/davis_v_davis.htm) > > Divorcing couple. Wife wanted custody of frozen emnryos to carry them to term. Husband said no, he’d change his mind and didn’t want chldren with her. Wife said she would donate them to infertile women so they could carry them to term and keep the baby. Husband said no. > > State superior court agreed with hubby; embryos were destroyed. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not really on point. This case does not involve a woman’s body. Where were they going to implant them? Artificial womb? > [@ruadh](#): > > Same decision reached in _Roche v Roche_ here in Ireland last year. Complicated by the fact that the Irish constitution protects the right to life of the “unborn”. The court held that “unborn” meant “in the womb” and not “in a petri dish in a freezer”. > > In this case the man’s choice carried the day, but as **Diogenes** says it’s a different issue where the embryos aren’t already in the woman’s body. Furthermore, if the court had accepted the woman’s argument that frozen embryos are “unborn”, in a future case where the man wanted them to be born and the woman didn’t, there’s a possibility she could have been compelled to have them implanted in her, which is a pretty horrifying prospect. I didn’t have any problem supporting the decision that was reached. If “life begins at conception,” then unfreezing embryos is premeditated murder. I read the book “The Girls Who Went Away” about interviews with women who were forced to give their babies up for adoption pre-legal abortion. The stories are heartbreaking. Every one of them either had a bunch of children as soon as possible, or never gave birth again. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/53 "2011-03-03T16:11:42Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Regardless of deception on the part of the woman? > > If he was drunk (as cited) could the guy make informed consent to this? Yes and yes. He made the choice to get drunk. I also really don’t think you want to make “I was drunk” into a legitimate excuse for fathers to abandon their children. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/54 "2011-03-03T16:16:03Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Where were they going to implant them? Artificial womb? Irrelevant question. The embryos themselves don’t have anything to do with the dicussion at hand. The issue is whether a man should have any say about what a woman can do with her own body. If her body’s not involved, then the fundamental question has changed. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/55 "2011-03-03T16:19:41Z")
Where did this meme come from that men are constantly being accused of rape for having sex with drunk partners? Cite? As far as I know, it’s only rape if the other person is so incapacitated that they don’t know what’s happening or can’t physically say yes or no. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/56 "2011-03-03T17:29:31Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Where did this meme come from that men are constantly being accused of rape for having sex with drunk partners? Cite? > > As far as I know, it’s only rape if the other person is so incapacitated that they don’t know what’s happening or can’t physically say yes or no. Even then its more of a he said, she said thing and almost never gets prosecuted unless some the guy actually gets seen dragging a passed out chick from the bar into his car. It generally comes down to “what were you doing drunk at his place anyway Missy?” and can get even messier and meaner after that. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/57 "2011-03-03T21:11:56Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Where were they going to implant them? Artificial womb?.. Presumably he would be able to find a surrogate to carry them to term. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/58 "2011-03-04T02:33:40Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Your poor cousin, so unable to avoid having unprotected sex with a crazy, apparently super-fertile (pregnant the first time eh?), baby-desiring woman. If only he had the power to choose who he sleeps with! If only condoms were cheap and widely available! > > Really, dude sounds like a class act. :rolleyes: > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Good for her. The guy sounds like a huge douche. If you ask me, they BOTH sound like douches. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/59 "2011-03-04T06:47:02Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > If “life begins at conception,” then unfreezing embryos is premeditated murder. I didn’t say it was a _logical_ decision. Actually, I read the decision in full and I do think the Supreme Court was basically fudging the issue because it didn’t want to have to deal with the consequences (apart from the one I already pointed out, it would also have rendered certain common forms of contraception illegal). And the right-to-life crowd were certainly not happy about it. But it was clearly the best decision from a feminist point of view - even though in this case it was the man whose choice carried the day. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174/60 "2011-03-05T09:34:00Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Irrelevant question. The embryos themselves don’t have anything to do with the dicussion at hand. The issue is whether a man should have any say about what a woman can do with her own body. If her body’s not involved, then the fundamental question has changed. Bullshit. The issue is why women get a second chance to say they don’t want to have a kid but men don’t. No one wants to make a woman have an abortion or have the child. What we care about is the fact that the woman can have an abortion and therefore not have to support the child, but a man does not have any corresponding option. It’s not like most abortions are for medical reasons–they are because the women does not want to have a child to support. Women have an option to get out of support that men don’t, and many men find this unfair. That is the whole debate. Reframing it as men wanting to control women’s bodies is just a strawman and possibly _ad hominem_. (He wants to control a woman’s body. That makes him evil, so we can ignore his arguments.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-say-does-the-father-have-in-abortions/573174.md?page=4)