# How much should immigrants of other cultures change to fit the culture of their new homeland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067 "2011-11-15T23:30:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/61 "2011-11-16T19:52:18Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > No it isn’t. I am an American. I was born here and I have lived here exclusively since 1997. I own and operate several businesses. I interact with small and large companies all the time and the only people who have ever had a problem with the fact that I don’t shake hands with men have been men who had very contemptable attitudes about women (and other minorities). If anything is dense, it would be rejecting skilled and value business partners and passing up opportunities because some one refused to compromise their morals for someone else’s whims. Even though you were born here, you obviously don’t do the social norms. Native or not, there ARE norms for social interaction, and handshakes ARE one of them. Now, luckily, I know a wee bit about middle eastern culture, so I’d do what I could to avoid pissing people off, but that goes both ways. If someone is only here for a business meeting, they’re not an immigrant, and I’ll try to accommodate them. Once you move here though, you are an American, and like all Americans living in America, should not expect anyone to cut you any slack for any reason. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/62 "2011-11-16T20:46:46Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Even though you were born here, you obviously don’t do the social norms. Native or not, there ARE norms for social interaction, and handshakes ARE one of them. Now, luckily, I know a wee bit about middle eastern culture, so I’d do what I could to avoid pissing people off, but that goes both ways. If someone is only here for a business meeting, they’re not an immigrant, and I’ll try to accommodate them. Once you move here though, you are an American, and like all Americans living in America, should not expect anyone to cut you any slack for any reason. What makes this a great country is that Americans don’t get to persecute other Americans (or other people in general) for refusing to follow their little whims. And sticking your hands out at women is NOT the social norm for plenty of people. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/63 "2011-11-16T21:13:59Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > What makes this a great country is that Americans don’t get to persecute other Americans (or other people in general) for refusing to follow their little whims. And sticking your hands out at women is NOT the social norm for plenty of people. Yes, and those people are the Japanese. If I understand you correctly, you are packing your bags for that feminist utopia as we speak. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/64 "2011-11-16T21:45:23Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > What makes this a great country is that Americans don’t get to persecute other Americans (or other people in general) for refusing to follow their little whims. And sticking your hands out at women is NOT the social norm for plenty of people. Who? What AMERICAN social norm does this defy? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/65 "2011-11-16T23:04:00Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > But to insist that someone perform a ritual of meaningless value that violates their beliefs is the height of bad etiquette. The fact that you rail against this “meaningless” ritual indicates that you do not truly believe it to be meaningless. If the handshake ritual had no meaning then you wouldn’t be at all bothered by shaking the hand of a man. The handshake ritual is important for a variety of reasons. #1. Shaking hands demonstrates that you respect the other person. #2. Shaking hands is a recognition that an interaction is about to take place. #3. Shaking hands is a recognition that the interaction has come to an end. Of course this is all within the social context of American life. I’m sure you’ve gotten away with not shaking hands with men. I’m sure you’ve also made bad first impressions multiple times because of your refusal to shake hands. While I’m sure there are some groups in the United States that frown on opposite sex handshaking, the handshake ritual is the norm in the United States when it comes to work. I have yet to go to a job interview without shaking hands, I always shake the hands of new coworkers and I even shake the hands of contractors who want to fix my roof. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/66 "2011-11-16T23:09:09Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Who? What AMERICAN social norm does this defy? Tradiational American etiquette has always been that a gentleman waits for a woman to extend her hand if there is to be handshaking at a greeting. No exceptions. He waits for her permission to touch her, he does not demand it, though it is permissible in some situation to ask “Do you shake hands, miss, mam, etc.?” if she seems awkward about the situation. To do otherwise indicates at least a lack of manners, possibly a lack of morals. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/67 "2011-11-16T23:11:10Z")
[quote=“Odesio, post:65, topic:603067”] #1. Shaking hands demonstrates that you respect the other person. [QUOTE] No it doesn’t. Most con artists have great handshakes. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/68 "2011-11-16T23:19:02Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Tradiational American etiquette has always been that a gentleman waits for a woman to extend her hand if there is to be handshaking at a greeting. No exceptions. This has not been true in North America for well over a generation. Your opinions regarding handshakes are well known to us. It is your right to believe what you wish. Your opinions are, however, extremely unusual, and it is false to assert that they constitute normal etiquette now. The simple fact is that on this issue your opinions are quite strange and are not regarded as normal manners in the United States. If you refuse a handshake you will be considered rude, and you’re just going to have to live with that fact because it isn’t changing anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/69 "2011-11-17T00:00:24Z")
This is an interesting thread without ZPG Zealot’s previously discussed handshaking bizarrity which already got covered in full in other threads, such as [this one.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=579187&page=2) ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/70 "2011-11-17T00:56:43Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Tradiational American etiquette has always been that a gentleman waits for a woman to extend her hand if there is to be handshaking at a greeting. No exceptions. He waits for her permission to touch her, he does not demand it, though it is permissible in some situation to ask “Do you shake hands, miss, mam, etc.?” if she seems awkward about the situation. To do otherwise indicates at least a lack of manners, possibly a lack of morals. What are you, a hundred? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/71 "2011-11-17T01:13:05Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Tradiational American etiquette has always been that a gentleman waits for a woman to extend her hand if there is to be handshaking at a greeting. No exceptions. He waits for her permission to touch her, he does not demand it, though it is permissible in some situation to ask “Do you shake hands, miss, mam, etc.?” if she seems awkward about the situation. To do otherwise indicates at least a lack of manners, possibly a lack of morals. Back in the 1950s or 60s, yeah. These days, though, a man who does this is seen by many women (including me) as being sexist and condescending. If a man would offer his hand for a handshake to another man in a given context, then I want him to offer me his hand for a handshake to me. I don’t want to be treated differently than a man would be treated. I don’t expect a man to automatically help me on with my coat/wrap, I don’t expect him to pull out my chair and then push it back in when I seat myself, and I don’t expect to be helped in and out of vehicles, just because I’m a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/72 "2011-11-17T02:05:35Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > They should do whatever they hell they want within the bounds of the law. legally, yes. Socially, people should adopt the new culture they have chosen to join. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/73 "2011-11-17T03:11:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > legally, yes. Socially, people should adopt the new culture they have chosen to join. That’s easy to say, but what does it mean in practice? Does it mean if someone moves here they need to speak English at home? Get fatter? Watch NASCAR? Do northerners who can’t stand greasy fatty food or NASCAR who move to Alabama get a pass because they were born here? This statement seems pretty xenophobic on it’s face, people different from me who obey the law generally don’t bother me much. Can you give some examples of what immigrants do socially that isn’t adapting that bothers you? I have a hard time thinking of any American practices they could choose not to adopt that would be 1) legal, and 2) bother me whatsoever. Refusing to shake my hand would probably rub me the wrong way unless someone was a germophobe and apologetic about it, _maybe_. The only other exception I can think of is if an immigrant chooses not to speak english, because it will basically mean that you will never be involved in mainstream society. But mainly because it’s just rude not to try to speak to the natives of a country you are moving to. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/74 "2011-11-17T03:34:05Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > That’s easy to say, but what does it mean in practice? Does it mean if someone moves here they need to speak English at home? Get fatter? Watch NASCAR? Do northerners who can’t stand greasy fatty food or NASCAR who move to Alabama get a pass because they were born here? This statement seems pretty xenophobic on it’s face, people different from me who obey the law generally don’t bother me much. > > Can you give some examples of what immigrants do socially that isn’t adapting that bothers you? I have a hard time thinking of any American practices they could choose not to adopt that would be 1) legal, and 2) bother me whatsoever. Refusing to shake my hand would probably rub me the wrong way unless someone was a germophobe and apologetic about it, _maybe_. > > The only other exception I can think of is if an immigrant chooses not to speak english, because it will basically mean that you will never be involved in mainstream society. But mainly because it’s just rude not to try to speak to the natives of a country you are moving to. My grandparents were immigrants. There was never any sense of hyphenated Americanism in their lives. If you don’t understand that I can’t explain it to you. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/75 "2011-11-17T04:07:19Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > That’s easy to say, but what does it mean in practice? Does it mean if someone moves here they need to speak English at home? Get fatter? Watch NASCAR? Do northerners who can’t stand greasy fatty food or NASCAR who move to Alabama get a pass because they were born here? This statement seems pretty xenophobic on it’s face, people different from me who obey the law generally don’t bother me much. > > Can you give some examples of what immigrants do socially that isn’t adapting that bothers you? I have a hard time thinking of any American practices they could choose not to adopt that would be 1) legal, and 2) bother me whatsoever. Refusing to shake my hand would probably rub me the wrong way unless someone was a germophobe and apologetic about it, _maybe_. > > The only other exception I can think of is if an immigrant chooses not to speak english, because it will basically mean that you will never be involved in mainstream society. But mainly because it’s just rude not to try to speak to the natives of a country you are moving to. Covering your face. The handshake thing… eh. I wouldn’t hire you, but whatever. Covering your face is the only thing that bothers me. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/76 "2011-11-17T04:07:52Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > No it doesn’t. Most con artists have great handshakes. Speaking of Con Artists, why don’t you remind everyone how you make your living, Madame ZPG Zealot? ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/77 "2011-11-17T04:12:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > My grandparents were immigrants. There was never any sense of hyphenated Americanism in their lives. If you don’t understand that I can’t explain it to you. Were they from the Republic of Texas? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/78 "2011-11-17T04:13:51Z")
Considering how such a tiny minority of Muslim women actually wear burqas I’ve never understood why so many people are so obsessed with them and convinced that the women who do so are “forced to” by “their men”. Do American women who wear stilleto heels, thong underwear and shave their legs do so because they are “forced to”. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/79 "2011-11-17T04:25:53Z")
[quote=“ZPG\_Zealot, post:67, topic:603067”] [quote=“Odesio, post:65, topic:603067”] #1. Shaking hands demonstrates that you respect the other person. > [@](#): > > No it doesn’t. Most con artists have great handshakes. I don’t think you can rationally discuss handshaking so I choose to disengage from discussing the subject with you. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/80 "2011-11-17T04:42:29Z")
They should integrate and assimilate as much as they want (or don’t want) to. What kind of person thinks, “There must be something wrong with you if you don’t want to shake hands with me!” ? Edit: Disclaimer: I only shake when I have to (eg, work). The exception is my stuents - they’re kids. They need high fives and ‘man pats’ on the back and hugs (for the girls). But adults? A nod and wave suffices. Seriously? Why do people have to get all up in each other’s germs? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067.md?page=5)