# How much should immigrants of other cultures change to fit the culture of their new homeland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067 "2011-11-15T23:30:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/81 "2011-11-17T04:46:29Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > Speaking of Con Artists, why don’t you remind everyone how you make your living, Madame ZPG Zealot? Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/82 "2011-11-17T05:14:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Knock it off. > > [/Moderating] It’s a perfectly valid question. For those who aren’t sure what I am talking about, ZPG Zealot has stated in the past that she makes her living as a fortune teller or spiritual adviser, which many people (myself included) see as a livelihood populated by more than it’s fair share of dishonest, deceptive practitioners. If I am factually incorrect, I will be more than glad to apologize to ZPG Zealot, and never engage her again. (That said, I don’t recall ZPG Zealot ever admitting to defrauding anyone outright) ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/83 "2011-11-17T05:36:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > My grandparents were immigrants. There was never any sense of hyphenated Americanism in their lives. If you don’t understand that I can’t explain it to you. If you can’t explain your thoughts and feelings perhaps you shouldn’t post here, that being the whole point. And overnight your immigrant grandparents fit right in, huh? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ProbablyProcrastinating](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/57b2e6/32.png) [@ProbablyProcrastinating](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ProbablyProcrastinating)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/84 "2011-11-17T06:00:50Z")
I think people have to give up control of others, which might have been their right in their homeland. They only get to defend the rights which are enforced here. So, you can’t force others to marry, you can’t imprison people, etc. But here we have the right not to shake hands. > [@](#): > > But don’t be suprised when you find that not conforming to local custom has a cost. And if you expect everyone else to conform to your foreign business practices, get used to disappointment. Yep. I don’t think we should force anybody, but you’d be an idiot not to conform enough to get a job, and to expect people to pay your way. Economic forces are pretty powerful (and I’m a leftist!). The vast majority of people will accept what they have to in order to survive. Just like they converted in order to get better trade deals with the Muslims in the first place. Same with English… nobody has to learn English. Nobody has to learn Chinese. People who speak English, Chinese, Arabic and Spanish are doing pretty damn well, though. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/85 "2011-11-17T06:06:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > My grandparents were immigrants. There was never any sense of hyphenated Americanism in their lives. If you don’t understand that I can’t explain it to you. The “back in the old days immigrants couldn’t wait to assimilate!” meme is pretty overblown. My grandfather’s parents were born in this country, but they spoke German at home. My grandfather spoke only German until he was five, because he lived in a German-speaking village right here in America. Then along came WWI. And hyphenated Americans–do you look down on Italians and Irish and Jews because they’re hyphenated-Americans instead of American Americans? Or does that apply only to Hispanics and Muslims? What exactly do you object to, when people are hyphenated-Americans? They eat the wrong food? Have the wrong religion? Wear the wrong clothes? Study the wrong language at hyphenated school that their grandparents spoke as children and their parents kind of speak and they know a few words of? ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/86 "2011-11-17T16:02:51Z")
If you choose to emigrate to, or even visit another country with different cultural values then it is down to you to adapt to THEM, not expect them to pander to you. If you seriously don’t want to do this no one is going to beg you to go to their country, so you can stay where you are and abide by your own cultural values. People have said if it doesn’t break the law then its ok, which is true to an extent . But while a woman has social pressures not to fall in love with (let alone marry)or even platonically socialise with someone of the wrong ethnicity/religion/branch of religion this is not breaking U.K. law. But she may well know that to do so will result in her being murdered by her family in an "Honour " killing. By sweeping the other cultural norms under the carpet as it being “Their way”, you are in fact tacitly supporting them being kept in conditions very similar to slavery. Having to dress a certain way, being told who to marry, what job (if any )that they’re allowed to apply for, not being allowed to leave the house unescorted, all under the orders of male relatives. I am an experienced world traveller and I practice what I preach. I don’t demand the right to drink alcohol, or have sex on the beach in Muslim countrys for example, because ultimately its my choice to go there in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/87 "2011-11-17T16:13:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > My grandparents were immigrants. There was never any sense of hyphenated Americanism in their lives. If you don’t understand that I can’t explain it to you. This just isn’t believable. Unless your grandparents were from a Canadian border town, it’s simply not credible to claim that they instantly became middle class Americans the moment they got off the boat - and it’s ludicrous to think most Americans would have considered them as such. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/88 "2011-11-17T22:46:12Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > And hyphenated Americans–do you look down on Italians and Irish and Jews because they’re hyphenated-Americans instead of American Americans? Or does that apply only to Hispanics and Muslims? If their ethnic identity is more important to them than their identity as Americans, then, yes, I do have a problem with them. > [@Lemur866](#): > > What exactly do you object to, when people are hyphenated-Americans? They eat the wrong food? Have the wrong religion? Wear the wrong clothes? Study the wrong language at hyphenated school that their grandparents spoke as children and their parents kind of speak and they know a few words of? I object to the notion that you can have dozens or hundreds of different cultures all living together in the same geographical area and still have a genuine community. A nation is an organic whole, not merely a set of laws and political institutions. A people who are too deeply divided by language, religion, social customs and traditions, etc. are not truly a people at all, A community is a group of people who have something in common. Hell, “common” is the root word of “community.” When people no longer have anything in common other than the geographic area in which they live and the state which governs them, they are not a community. As I’ve already pointed out in this thread, you can only have so much diversity before you lose all sense of community–and that’s what’s happening in the United States today. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/89 "2011-11-17T22:49:15Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Maybe as much as European invaders changed to fit the culture of the people of their new American homeland – by committing genocide to annihilate the native populations. > > That’s a possibility, isn’t it? Could we please dispense with bashing whites in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/90 "2011-11-17T23:28:53Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Is that what you did when you were in Camaroon? When you were in China did you make no adaptations at all in order to get along with other people there? I ask because the only people I know of who did not adapt to local cultures were those who didn’t work directly with the native population. There is a huge difference between what you _should_ do and what you are _forced_ to do my threat of imprisonment. In a free society you are free to be an ass so long as you don’t break any laws doing so. Not that I’m saying that someone who chooses to follow personal religious customs that aren’t followed my the majority of the community is being an ass. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/91 "2011-11-18T00:00:26Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > There is a huge difference between what you _should_ do and what you are _forced_ to do my threat of imprisonment. I understand that. The OP doesn’t mention anything about passing laws to force immigrants to adopt our customs. However, for some strange reason, the conversation has been steered towards legalities. I certainly never advocated legal changes to force handshakes, prevent burqas from being worn, etc., etc. > [@](#): > > Not that I’m saying that someone who chooses to follow personal religious customs that aren’t followed my the majority of the community is being an ass. I wonder if many of the answers in this thread would be the same had the OP been phrased in a different manner and the Muslims were left out of the equation. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/92 "2011-11-18T00:04:55Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I understand that. The OP doesn’t mention anything about passing laws to force immigrants to adopt our customs. However, for some strange reason, the conversation has been steered towards legalities. I certainly never advocated legal changes to force handshakes, prevent burqas from being worn, etc., etc. The OP says: > [@](#): > > I’m just considering where my own personal lines are drawn, and where the lines of a nation should be drawn - if at all? A nation draws lines by passing laws. If you are not talking about passing laws, then the whole discussion is kind of academic really. You can pontificate all you want about what multiculturalism means for community. But its all so much hot air unless: A - You are planning to move to another culture and intend to blend in completely. B - You think we should pass laws to force people to “blend in” as defined by you. I’m assuming A does not apply to most of the posters here, so B is the only one that applies. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/93 "2011-11-18T00:05:03Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I understand that. The OP doesn’t mention anything about passing laws to force immigrants to adopt our customs. However, for some strange reason, the conversation has been steered towards legalities. I certainly never advocated legal changes to force handshakes, prevent burqas from being worn, etc., etc. The OP mentions both “my own personal lines” and also “where the lines of a nation should be drawn”. Talking about “the lines of a nation” to me implies legalities. ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/94 "2011-11-18T00:20:04Z")
Ugh, I sort of poisoned my own debate early on by making it be all about Muslim’s in my first few posts because I was thinking about burqas. (and now it’s completely side tracked into handshake rape - who saw that coming?) How much should you compromise your own beliefs to live in a country with different ones? If I’m from a culture where drinking to get drunk is the norm and I move to a country where most people only drink with dinner - obviously I’m free to drink as much as I like, but should I make the effort to match the local behavior to fit in? That’s more of a question of personal lines. But if I move to a culture where abortion is illegal and I get pregnant, that’s where it becomes about legality. ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/95 "2011-11-18T00:30:14Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > You can pontificate all you want about what multiculturalism means for community. But its all so much hot air unless: > > A - You are planning to move to another culture and intend to blend in completely. > B - You think we should pass laws to force people to “blend in” as defined by you. So I have to be an expat or a dictator? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/96 "2011-11-18T00:32:47Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Could we please dispense with bashing whites in this thread? LOL ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/97 "2011-11-18T00:34:27Z")
> [@Scathach](#): > > So I have to be an expat or a dictator? :eek: Is there an option C when it comes to “where the lines of a nation should be drawn” ? Either you respect someones beliefs, even though you disagree with them, or you pass laws to criminalize them. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/98 "2011-11-18T00:34:31Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > A nation draws lines by passing laws. If you are not talking about passing laws, then the whole discussion is kind of academic really. Eh, we draw lines in a lot of different ways. Laws are simply a set of formalized rules but we have other types of rules and plenty of informal ways to enforce those rules. So while you might see “drawing lines” as passing laws, I do not. Though I see where you’re coming from. > [@](#): > > You can pontificate all you want about what multiculturalism means for community. But its all so much hot air unless: > > A - You are planning to move to another culture and intend to blend in completely. > B - You think we should pass laws to force people to “blend in” as defined by you. > > I’m assuming A does not apply to most of the posters here, so B is the only one that applies. I live in an area that has seen an explosion in the Latino population over the last few years. There are signs in Spanish and Mexican markets (i.e. they are changing the landscape). So multiculturalism does mean something to me even though I’m not moving. It means something to us all. And as I said in my first post, we have to change a little to assimilate the new people as well. ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/99 "2011-11-18T00:50:40Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Is there an option C when it comes to “where the lines of a nation should be drawn” ? Either you respect someones beliefs, even though you disagree with them, or you pass laws to criminalize them. That’s my point, I’m not a dictator who can pass laws to criminalise things. I cast a vote against things I disagree with like everyone else - I’m not mandating that people have to agree with me. Like, there are things which I think most people agree should be illegal even though it’s a cultural practice, like female genital mutilation. But the line isn’t clear for lots of things, that’s why I asked the question - for a debate to hear different views on something I might think is clear cut, but has nuances that I hadn’t considered. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/100 "2011-11-18T01:28:45Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > If you can’t explain your thoughts and feelings perhaps you shouldn’t post here, that being the whole point. > > And overnight your immigrant grandparents fit right in, huh? :rolleyes: I did explain my position. And you didn’t understand it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067.md?page=6)