# How much should immigrants of other cultures change to fit the culture of their new homeland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067 "2011-11-15T23:30:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/121 "2011-11-18T04:00:26Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > You cannot divorce culture from ethnicity and race. Really, if then please give me your definition of race and particularly of “whites”. Similarly, explain to me how Orlando Hernandez [http://www.2000magazine.com/websightsthree/yankeesmagazine/NEWPAGES2/thumbs/th\_orlando%20hernandez.jpg](http://www.2000magazine.com/websightsthree/yankeesmagazine/NEWPAGES2/thumbs/th_orlando%20hernandez.jpg) is different than Jose Canseco. [http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2005/02/13/image673762g.jpg](http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2005/02/13/image673762g.jpg) For those unfamiliar with them, Hernandez is black(at least by American standards) while Canseco is white(if you define people who are of 100% European descent as white). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/122 "2011-11-18T04:20:12Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > No you specifically chose NOT to express your position other than a meaningless catchphrase, because you can’t. You said: > You are the one claiming that your grandparents fresh off the boat fit in perfectly with American society and completely abandoned their native culture. This has happened never, in the history of ever. Sigh… Yes, I explained it and no I never said that fresh off the boat they fit in perfectly with American society. You quoted what I said and went on to ignore it completely. They assimilated into society with no sense of hyphenated-Americanism. They moved to this country to be Americans. Their children were indistinguishable from 10th generation American children. They struggled to learn the language and insisted their children speak it correctly. Whatever they brought to this country in the way of custom and tradition was melded into American culture. They chose to be Americans. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/123 "2011-11-18T04:24:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They assimilated into society with no sense of hyphenated-Americanism. Which is why the terms Irish-American or Italian-American don’t exist :rolleyes: > [@Magiver](#): > > ``` > Their children were indistinguishable from 10th generation American children. They struggled to learn the language and insisted their children speak it correctly. Whatever they brought to this country in the way of custom and tradition was melded into American culture. They chose to be Americans. > > ``` They did ? Any more than modern immigrants are ? There were German language papers in every city in the US prior to WW1. There are still “German tourist clubs” where I live in Northern California. Provide a cite for the fact that modern immigrants are “assimilating” at a slower rate than 100 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/124 "2011-11-18T04:33:52Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > I’m sorry you’re white and live in fear of others different from you. It must be pretty shitty, my life is pretty awesome personally since I choose not to be afraid of something that has been happening for hundreds of years. Now you’re just being a jerk trying to project your prejudices on me. You have no point to make beyond running your mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/125 "2011-11-18T04:37:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Now you’re just being a jerk trying to project your prejudices on me. You have no point to make beyond running your mouth. Are you LonesomePolecat? ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/126 "2011-11-18T04:41:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Now you’re just being a jerk trying to project your prejudices on me. You have no point to make beyond running your mouth. I wasn’t quoting you, I was quoting lonesomepolecat. I have a point towards you, which could be summed up as “There’s nothing new to immigrant groups emmigrating and then trying to shut the door behind them, because those NEW immigrants didn’t emmigrate like WE did, APPLE PIE BALD EAGLES!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/127 "2011-11-18T04:43:40Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Which is why the terms Irish-American or Italian-American don’t exist :rolleyes: Of course they exist. We are a nation of nothing BUT immigrants. My family assimilated in melting pot fashion which is what makes up the greater part of our nation. This is in contrast to those who see themselves as islands within a country. My culture is loosely based on the laws and customs of Great Britain and not on my family tree. I have more in common with India or Australia then of my “native” land. We are either a nation of one or a nation divided. It’s the philosophical difference between the concept of “melting pot” or “cultural diversity”. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/128 "2011-11-18T04:47:58Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Provide a cite for the fact that modern immigrants are “assimilating” at a slower rate than 100 years ago. Provide a quote that I made that statement. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/129 "2011-11-18T04:52:28Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > I wasn’t quoting you, I was quoting lonesomepolecat. I have a point towards you, which could be summed up as “There’s nothing new to immigrant groups emmigrating and then trying to shut the door behind them, because those NEW immigrants didn’t emmigrate like WE did, APPLE PIE BALD EAGLES!!!” In post 120 you quoted me. I have no clue what you’re rambling about now but kudos for all the exclamation points. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/130 "2011-11-18T04:52:47Z")
I think we all agree that immigrants must adopt the _laws_ of the country. Beyond that, I don’t care what food they eat, what music they listen to, or what clothes they wear. Since we have separation of church and state, I don’t care what religion they practice. I don’t even really care what language they speak at home; of course, if immigrants never learn the new country’s language, eventually members of various groups won’t be able to communicate with each other–fortunately, immigrants pretty much always wind up learning the new country’s language (though not necessarily in the first generation). And I certainly don’t care what color skin they have. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/131 "2011-11-18T05:00:24Z")
I suppose it’s worth noting that such states as Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California (for example) had a predominately latino population long before they became states. You know, while we’re talking about assimilation and such. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/132 "2011-11-18T05:21:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > In post 120 you quoted me. I have no clue what you’re rambling about now but kudos for all the exclamation points. Yes, you’re correct he quoted you in post 120. However the quote that that caused you to attack him: > [@](#): > > I’m sorry you’re white and live in fear of others different from you. It must be pretty shitty, my life is pretty awesome personally since I choose not to be afraid of something that has been happening for hundreds of years. came in post 121 and he was criticizing LonesomePolecat. ---
**Author:** ![ProbablyProcrastinating](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/57b2e6/32.png) [@ProbablyProcrastinating](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ProbablyProcrastinating)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/133 "2011-11-18T07:18:18Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Could we please dispense with bashing whites in this thread? Hey, white people aren’t the only genocidal murderers. Plenty of genocides have gone on around the globe for millennia, by people of all races! Don’t feel bad. You’re not alone. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/134 "2011-11-18T07:45:30Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Beyond that, I don’t care what food they eat, what music they listen to, or what clothes they wear. Is it really that simple though? Whether or not you’re a native of the United States, I don’t care what you eat, what you listen to and outside of some pretty specific instances I don’t care what you wear. Are there really a lot of people offended because the Hernandez family likes to eat molé on their tamales instead of the nice brown meat gravy they put on my tamales at the Taco Hut? I’m far more concerned with how we communicate and work together than I am with other aspects of our cultures. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/135 "2011-11-18T07:49:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Now you’re just being a jerk trying to project your prejudices on me. You have no point to make beyond running your mouth. This is out of line for Great Debates, even if you were not attacking the wrong poster. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/136 "2011-11-18T09:33:55Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Is it really that simple though? Whether or not you’re a native of the United States, I don’t care what you eat, what you listen to and outside of some pretty specific instances I don’t care what you wear. Are there really a lot of people offended because the Hernandez family likes to eat molé on their tamales instead of the nice brown meat gravy they put on my tamales at the Taco Hut? I’m far more concerned with how we communicate and work together than I am with other aspects of our cultures. Since I’m not one of the people who gets overly worried about immigration and immigrants, I’m not totally sure what it is people are getting so worked up about. So far, we’ve had a fairly lengthy digression about hand-shaking. Refusal to shake hands, especially if it’s gender-based, _is_ kind of off-putting, but it really seems to be a bit of a personal idiosyncrasy rather than some kind of new immigrant craze that’s sweeping the nation. I think some ultra-Orthodox Jews may also go for the “no handshaking with members of the opposite sex” thing, but while they’re immigrants (same as the rest of us), they’re a pretty well-entrenched minority subculture. I don’t think they all just got off the boat (or plane) yesterday. Which brings me back to the point that there are all kinds of odd little subcultures in America, some of which have been here for generations, yet the Republic thus far survives. Otherwise–we’ve talked about burqas and headscarves; I do sometimes see headscarves of various sorts, but while I think I’ve seen a full-face burqa in person at some point in my life, they’re hardly common. We’ve had mentions of, I think, female genital mutilation, which I certainly agree should be illegal (at least if it’s being done to underage girls). We’ve had it claimed that too much diversity in “language, religion, social customs and traditions” will undermine the “organic whole” of our nation, which frankly sounds like something I _want_ to be undermined. There’s also been the idea mooted that Latinos are going to take over and oppress us white folks, as well as an explicit desire that our country be in some way racially pure. I agree that language is potentially a big deal. I think public schools should teach kids to speak, read, and write in the English language. However, I don’t want some sort of Official Sign Police going around giving orders to private individuals and businesses that their signs must say “Supermarket” instead of “Supermercado” or “超级市场”; or even that their signs must say “Supermarket” along with “Supermercado” or “超级市场”. So what else is there to discuss? ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/137 "2011-11-18T10:22:42Z")
A minority subculture, like orthodox Jews, or the Amish, are not trying to assimilate into mainstream culture. Immigrants are free to join whatever culture or subculture they want, but should not expect anything but odd stares, or even distrust, if they do something that is out of normative behavior bounds for almost every culture/subculture in this country. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/138 "2011-11-18T17:37:07Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > I’m sorry you’re white and live in fear of others different from you. It must be pretty shitty, my life is pretty awesome personally since I choose not to be afraid of something that has been happening for hundreds of years. I’m sorry you’re incapable of conversing like an adult. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/139 "2011-11-18T19:06:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Sigh… > > Yes, I explained it and no I never said that fresh off the boat they fit in perfectly with American society. You quoted what I said and went on to ignore it completely. They assimilated into society with no sense of hyphenated-Americanism. They moved to this country to be Americans. Their children were indistinguishable from 10th generation American children. They struggled to learn the language and insisted their children speak it correctly. Whatever they brought to this country in the way of custom and tradition was melded into American culture. They chose to be Americans. The thing is, it really can depend on whether there is a subculture for the immigrants to fall into. Let me give you an example from my own family. My parents immigrated from Europe to the Philadelphia area in 1956. In those suburbs there was no significant subculture of Hungarian Jews, so they had no choice but to assimilate into society. All their friends and co-workers were American, and most of them were Christian. I was born a few years later and certainly I was a totally American kid. In 1972 we moved to Montreal for reasons that are unimportant here. But the key thing is that in Montreal there IS (or at least was then) a major minority subculture of Jewish immigrants who spoke various Eastern European languages first, English second, and no French at all. (Since Montreal is majority French speaking overall you can see that this is a subculture.) This time we fit, deliberately and completely, into the subculture. Because it was there. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067/140 "2011-11-18T19:15:27Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > I’m sorry you’re white and live in fear of others different from you. It must be pretty shitty, my life is pretty awesome personally since I choose not to be afraid of something that has been happening for hundreds of years. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > I’m sorry you’re incapable of conversing like an adult. Both of you are out of line here. Since I’m the second person to have to moderate this thread today, I want to make it completely clear that any posts that are even _marginally_ insulting will get warnings. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-should-immigrants-of-other-cultures-change-to-fit-the-culture-of-their-new-homeland/603067.md?page=8)