How much sympathy do people deserve who go adventuring in dangerous, politically unstable areas?

[MrDibble]

@Mr.Excellent

@MrDibble

Participatory democracy.Passive resistance.Hard work.

I’m fairly certain that passive resistance to the janjaweed, or Nazis, or genocidaires, or Soviets, would lead only to a death remarkable both for its swiftness and unpleasantness. The same holds true for passive resistance to any number of other tyrants, both contemporary and historical. Some people are monsters, and can only be constrained at muzzle’s end.

Then we die, and that’s the end of that.

I’m not convinced that truly participatory democracy is a viable means to governing a large state

Aah, well, there you’ve hit the heart of it, haven’t you. There are two words there I don’t like at all - “governing” and “large”

, but I’ll skip that for now - while still pointing out that you’re going to need a state for that participatory democracy to govern if you’re going to use “hard work” to maintain the infrastructure. Absent a state, how will you establish which bits of infrastructure are to be maintained, and to what standards?

Consensus and bargaining, same as now. Why is a state (by which I mean a class of professional politicians) necessary for this?

Who will establish and enforce safety rules for the workers?

The workers, collectively.

For passengers on public transit?

The passengers, collectively.

Who’ll collect taxes to pay for all of this?

Pay?

@MrDibble

The one where the government isn’t evil?

But so long as other governments remain fairly evil, don’t you need some means to keep an eye on them?

I find the media and social networks and simply looking to be perfectly adequate for any real threats to a modern country. Shit, I can peak into the Iran-Iraq border from my frigging desk. Not real-time, but then I’m not a nation-state.

Heck, I wouldn’t wish Zimbabwe as a neighbor on anybody - wouldn’t you want to keep an eye on the Mugabe regime?

“Keep an eye on” is not the same as “infiltrate and break the laws of”. It is perfectly possible to “keep an eye on” someone without breaking into their house, for instance.

But let’s face it, the CIA as an org would rather break into your house. Hell, they’d rather pay someone else to break into your house, and while there, plant some kiddie porn on you computer. That’s the kind of evil fucks they are. Ask any number of African, Asian and Latin American countries.

[torie]

@Mr.Excellent

Out of curiosity, doesn’t South Africa maintain its own intelligence services? You’ve got a Secret Service with an intelligence mandate, a National Intelligence Agency (with a very creepy logo)

Holy shit!.

You weren’t kidding.

[ctnguy]

@torie

Holy shit!.

You weren’t kidding.

If anything, the rotating version on the apparently-made-in-FrontPage website is even worse. I like to call it “the Eye of Cwele”.

[Cicero]

Heavens, I never thought I would ever agree with Dio but I largely do in this thread.

And I await the forth coming canonisation of Even Sven.