# How much "underworld" infrastructure really exists under modern cities **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 11, 2012, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606 "2012-05-11T13:01:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/41 "2012-05-12T14:35:15Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I wonder if Chicago ever had an underground freight train system. Hey, think about the fact that four of us were composing Chicago Tunnel Co. posts _simultaneously._ ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/42 "2012-05-14T03:37:43Z")
> [@wheresmymind](#): > > Yes, the book _Mole People_ has been pretty much debunked. The author of that book greatly exaggerated, or fabricated many of her experiences, and accepted hearsay uncritically, reporting it as fact. Debunked by the Great Master, no less: [The Mole People revisited - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2498/em-the-mole-people-em-revisited) He quotes railbuff Joseph Brennan who says: “Every fact in this book that I can verify independently is wrong.” Then he has a tense conversation with the original author. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/43 "2012-05-14T13:39:15Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > The evidence quoted on Wiki for the existence of Metro-2 seems pretty strong to me, and during the cold war it made perfect sense. Communist countries have always been big on this kind of thing and it’s a lot easier to keep it a secret than it would be in a democracy. > > Beijing is confirmed to have many cold war tunnels, because they abandoned them and people have been in and take photos. > [http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/art-and-design/news-beijings-underground-city](http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/art-and-design/news-beijings-underground-city) Interesting-I also recall reading that a top-level Soviet era defector talked about a massive underground command center, which was built hundreds of meters underground-in a solid granite formation. I don’t recall all the details, but it was said to be able to survive a direct hit from a nuclear warhead. Location? I think he said that it was somewhere in the region of Kursk. Anyone know more about this? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/44 "2012-05-14T14:40:41Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > When I was living in St. Louis, I asked the natives a question: “Which side was St. Louis on in the Civil War?” They said it was complicated. Missouri had its own little intramural civil war—sort of the Civil War semifinals, and the winner would then get to join the main Civil War—anyway, St. Louis changed hands between both sides; it was fought over between Missourian Rebs and Missourian Feds (and IIRC that was how Ulysses S. Grant got started in the war). > > So my St. Louis friends related rumors of hidden tunnels leading from many of the old houses to provide a route of secret escape in case the city be taken over by whichever side you’re against. Or a network of secret connections between houses, if any of them linked up. I bet Chicago doesn’t have anything like that either. What they did have is a secret murder hotel run by major serial killer H. H. Holmes. Any number of horror/suspense movies & shows with secret murder hotels (_Angel, Supernatural,_ maybe _Barton Fink_ come to mind) actually trace their plots back to the real-life horror in Chicago. I didn’t mention the caves because they weren’t “built” but they were a big part of St. Louis history. The old city had a lot of natural caves, sinkholes and the like. Quite a few of the larger ones were dug out (the clay was used for brickmaking) making large underground rooms. Those were used by the city’s many breweries for cool storage and a few of them were even outfitted with lighting and set up as banquet halls. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/45 "2012-05-14T15:26:46Z")
There is a recent crime novel about mole people in Stockholm (not available in English). The authors claim that details about tunnels and people living there are the only things that haven’t sprung from their imagination. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/46 "2012-05-14T15:44:38Z")
Neutral Sweden built vast underground shelters, for use in the event of nuclear war. These places included hospitals, schools, etc. Are they still maintained? Or left to rot? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/47 "2012-05-14T16:04:05Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Or Rio. And for more than twenty minutes, too. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/48 "2012-05-15T13:45:45Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Neutral Sweden built vast underground shelters, for use in the event of nuclear war. These places included hospitals, schools, etc. > Are they still maintained? Or left to rot? I have no definite answer to that, but in Stockholm one underground shelter is used as a garage and there are plans to convert it into a bus terminal, one contains a computer centre (I think) and one is used by the Museum of East Asian Antiquities for special exhibitions. The Wikipedia article about [this hospital](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B6dersjukhuset) claims that “The hospital has an underground complex measuring 4,500 square meters (48,500 square feet) called DEMC (Disaster Emergency Center), which was completed and inaugurated on 25 November 1994. In peacetime the complex is used for training and scientific research. In case of disaster or war the complex is fully operational as a normal hospital.”, but I think the underground facilities were there already when it opened in 1944 as I have heard about them long before 1994. Then there are all sorts of military underground installations that are no longer used, but I think they are just sealed off in case they have to be put to use again in the future. I saw a TV program the other year about a couple of disused fortresses in the archipelago outside Stockholm that had been sealed, but with openings to allow bats to fly in and out. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/49 "2012-05-15T14:19:55Z")
The prequel to The Tripod Trilogy series of books reveals that disused underground shelters in Switzerland were the genesis of the human resistance.(or their base of operations at least.) EDIT:In case anyone is interested in fiction involving underground infrastructure. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/50 "2012-05-15T15:58:11Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Interesting-I also recall reading that a top-level Soviet era defector talked about a massive underground command center, which was built hundreds of meters underground-in a solid granite formation. I don’t recall all the details, but it was said to be able to survive a direct hit from a nuclear warhead. Location? I think he said that it was somewhere in the region of Kursk. > Anyone know more about this? You’re probably thinking of the “Zhiguli” complex, made famous by 'Viktor Suvorov’s 1982 book, _Inside the Soviet Army_. Much of the text can be found online [here](http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov12/index.html). [The relevant part](http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov12/04.html) of it to your question follows: [paragraph structure changed from the original] > [@](#): > > Would it be possible to find a better place, anywhere on earth, to build an underground town? Zhiguli is a real natural miracle-a granite monolith 80 kilometres long and 40 wide. Some geologists maintain that Zhiguli is one single rock, crumbling slightly at the edges but retaining the original, massive unity of all its millions of tons. It rises out of the boundless steppes, almost entirely encircled by the huge river Volga, which turns it into a peninsula, with rocky shores which stretch for 150 kilometres and fall sheer to the water’s edge. Zhiguli is a gigantic fortress built by nature, with granite walls hundreds of metres high, bounded by the waters of the great river. From the air, Zhiguli presents an almost flat surface, overgrown with age-old, impenetrable forest. > > The climate is excellent-a cold winter, with hard frosts, but no wind. The summer is dry and hot. This would be the place to build sanatoriums! Here and there in clearings in the virgin forests there are beautiful private houses, fences, barbed wire, Alsatian dogs. One of Stalin’s dachas was built here, but nothing was ever written about it, any more than about those at Kuntsevo or Yalta. In the vicinity were the villas of Molotov and Beriya and later of Khrushchev, Brezhnev and others. > > Anyone who has travelled on the Moscow Metro will say that there is no better underground system in the world. But I would disagree with this-there is a much better one. In Zhiguli. It was built by the best of the engineers who worked on the Moscow Metro-and by thousands of prisoners. In Zhiguli tens of kilometres of tunnels have been cut, hundreds of metres deep into the granite monolith and command posts, communications centres, stores and shelters have been built for those who will control the gigantic armies during a war. In peacetime, no aircraft may fly over this region. Not even the most friendly of foreigners may enter the Zhiguli area, which is protected by a corps of the National Air Defence Forces and by a division of the KGB. Nearby is a huge airfield, at Kurumoch, which is completely empty. This is where the special aircraft will land but it is also intended for use by additional fighter aircraft, to strengthen the defences in the event of war. > > Close to Zhiguli is the city of Kuybishev… The thing is, like most of Suvorov’s book, it sounds cool, but I don’t think it’s actually true. (See, e.g., the whole brouhaha in the book about [the _Defence Council_,](http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov12/01.html) and being able to ID them by who stood next to who on Lenin’s Tomb during the May Day parades. Which, IIRC, was later discovered to be total bullshit.) Stalin did build a very deep bunker in the general area, in 1942, IIRC, and[it’s a tourist attraction today](http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/Europe/Russia/Samarskaya_Oblast/Samara-564633/Off_the_Beaten_Path-Samara-TG-C-1.html). (Scroll down to the blurb about “Stalin’s Bunker”.). [This site](http://www.xenophon-mil.org/ruscity/volga/samara/samara.htm) claims to have photos taken during a tour of it. As far as the current Russian equivalent of Cheyenne Mountain, I haven’t been able to find one in cursory searching. I’m sure they’d have several, but I couldn’t tell you where they were. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/51 "2012-05-15T19:31:17Z")
Congress had a huge underground bunker at the Greenbrier resort in West Virginia, not revealed until 1992: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/july/25/brier1.htm](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/july/25/brier1.htm) ---
**Author:** ![silvertung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@silvertung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silvertung)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/52 "2012-05-15T20:13:11Z")
\*\*When I was in NYC recently we visited Grand Central Station and my mom told us about a hidden underground entrance somewhere in the building…unfortunately we were too stricken by the buzz of the city to search for very long and didn’t find it. Here’s an interesting read: \*\* **A Look at One Forgotten Station** The MTA doesn’t want people exploring the abandoned or lost station stops. But for those that want a first hand glimpse, there is one option. MTA worker Dan Brucker gives tours of Grand Central Terminal that feature a visit to a secret station far below ground. “That secret train station out there was built for one customer only,” he boomed to a tour group late last year under the vaulted constellation of the terminal’s main hall. “It was built for Franklin Delano Roosevelt.” He said Roosevelt’s custom-built train would pull in and open its doors. A limousine with the president in it would be driven from inside the train, down a ramp and into an elevator next to the platform. “He and his limousine and his staff would be lifted up and then backed out into the Grand Ballroom of the Waldorf Astoria,” he said, where the president would give a speech. [http://media.wnyc.org/media/photologue/photos/cache/Subway\_18thSt\_1\_Duncan\_storyslide\_image](http://media.wnyc.org/media/photologue/photos/cache/Subway_18thSt_1_Duncan_storyslide_image) [http://www.wnyc.org/blogs/wnyc-news-blog/2012/jan/03/new-yorks-lost-subways/](http://www.wnyc.org/blogs/wnyc-news-blog/2012/jan/03/new-yorks-lost-subways/) ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/53 "2012-05-15T21:05:34Z")
Remember the TV show “Beauty and the Beast”? It took place on a then disused rail tunnel on the far west side of Manhattan. After Grand Central stopped having long distance trains the tunnel was reopened for the trains coming down the Hudson into NYC. I think these include the trains coming from Albany and I know they include the one train a day from Montreal that I take once or twice every year. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/54 "2012-05-15T21:33:55Z")
[Cincinnati began building an underground subway in the 1920s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Subway), and then later abandoned the project. Many of it still exists under downtown. [Here](http://www.forgottenoh.com/subway.html) are some pics taken by someone who explored it. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/55 "2012-05-15T22:49:31Z")
Going on display this Friday is a map of subterranean London by artist Stephen Walter: [Stephen Walter's Map Of Subterranean London | Londonist](http://londonist.com/2012/05/stephen-walters-map-of-subterranean-london.php?showpage=1#gallery-1) With all the underground train lines (not just the tube lines and abandoned tube sections but also Post Office train lines, Eurostar and national train services amongst others), sewers, old military bunkers, catacombs, cellars and so on, I’d imagine there’s rather a lot. Oh and all the London-based Thames tributary rivers run underground too. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/56 "2012-05-16T08:40:59Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > I didn’t mention the caves because they weren’t “built” but they were a big part of St. Louis history. The old city had a lot of natural caves, sinkholes and the like. Quite a few of the larger ones were dug out (the clay was used for brickmaking) making large underground rooms. Those were used by the city’s many breweries for cool storage and a few of them were even outfitted with lighting and set up as banquet halls. So Anhaeuser Busch down by Hwy 55 and Arsenal has its own “underworld”? Makes you wonder about the nearby Defense intelligence installation. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/57 "2012-05-16T11:52:37Z")
Speaking of “underground” cities-I remember visiting the crypt in the church of St. Clement’s Dane , in London. The crypt is at the level of the street, when the cathedral was built. Over time, the level of the street rose, as stuff got dumped in the streets, and other buildings rose. There was a neat little museum in the crypt-showing some ghastly stuff (like coffins made so that the bodies inside could not be stolen-for anatomical dissection). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/58 "2012-05-17T01:46:42Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Over time, the level of the street rose, as stuff got dumped in the streets, and other buildings rose. There was a neat little museum in the crypt-showing some ghastly stuff (like coffins made so that the bodies inside could not be stolen-for anatomical dissection). I can see that happening to abandoned cities, but hell, nobody sweeps the streets for a few hundred years? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/59 "2012-05-18T06:37:56Z")
The lower east side of New York City has an abandoned train terminal. Two guys want to convert it into an underground park, with solar lighting pumped in with fiber optics. They call it the [Low Line](http://inhabitat.com/nyc/the-low-line-a-spectacular-two-acre-underground-park-to-be-constructed-in-nycs-lower-east-side/). Last month they raised over $150,000 for a pilot project at [kickstarter](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/855802805/lowline-an-underground-park-on-nycs-lower-east-sid). ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606/60 "2012-05-18T07:53:31Z")
During a recent trip to Berlin we visited a vast nuclear bunker built under Kurfustendamm in the 1970’s . Designed to house over three thousand members of the public (first come, first served!) it still semi-operational, lined with tiers of bunks and enough food to last two weeks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-underworld-infrastructure-really-exists-under-modern-cities/621606.md?page=4)