How much weight should be given to Hannukah???

[alaricthegoth]

@FriarTed

Gnostic or Arian? I thought the Visigoth C’tians were Arian, which is totally different in doctrine from Gnostic.

They were Arians, and have been referenced (it was actually a surprise to me to) as an organized Gnostic sect. I’ll chase down the google.

[DSeid]

@cmkeller

Let me them be more clear: the Maccabees were the first Hasmoneans. Not all Hasmoneans were Maccabees, only Mattisyahu and his five sons.

The nasty, Hellenized ones were Hasmoneans, and indeed not too many generations after the Maccabees, but we should not tarnish the memory of the pious Maccabees by attaching their title to the later Hasmoneans.

Point taken. But “not too many”? Weren’t Simon and his two eldest sons murdered by his son-in-law, placing Simon’s youngest son in power? It went downhill awfully fast.

[An_Arky]

According to the World Factbook, in the United States, poeple of the Jewish faith number about 1%.. The percentage of non-Christian (Jewish - 1%, Muslim - 1%, Other - 10%, or None 10%) is about 22%.

I’d say to be fair, we should spend about 1% of our holiday greeting time on Hannukah. Of course, this might vary in different localities; in New York, for example, you’d have to devote more time to Hannukah, about 5%.

[cmkeller]

DSeid:

Point taken. But “not too many”? Weren’t Simon and his two eldest sons murdered by his son-in-law, placing Simon’s youngest son in power? It went downhill awfully fast.

It did go south pretty fast, but as far as I can tell, out-and-out murder wasn’t part of the picture until the second generation after Shimon. I see no indication from traditional Jewish histories that either Shimon or his sons were murdered, ot that his son-in-law was a murderer.

[Captain_Amazing]

@cmkeller

It did go south pretty fast, but as far as I can tell, out-and-out murder wasn’t part of the picture until the second generation after Shimon. I see no indication from traditional Jewish histories that either Shimon or his sons were murdered, ot that his son-in-law was a murderer.

It’s in both the noncanonical “Book of the Maccabees” and Josephus. As Macabees puts it:

Ptolemy, son of Abubus, had been appointed governor of the plain of Jericho, and he had much silver and gold, being the son-in-law of the high priest. But he became ambitious and sought to get control of the country. So he made treacherous plans to do away with Simon and his sons.

As Simon was inspecting the cities of the country and providing for their needs, he and his sons Mattathias and Judas went down to Jericho in the year one hundred and seventy-seven, in the eleventh month.

The son of Abubus gave them a deceitful welcome in the little stronghold called Dok which he had built. While serving them a sumptuous banquet, he had his men hidden there. Then, when Simon and his sons had drunk freely, Ptolemy and his men sprang up, weapons in hand, rushed upon Simon in the banquet hall, and killed him, his two sons, and some of his servants. By this vicious act of treason he repaid good with evil.

Then Ptolemy wrote an account of this and sent it to the king, asking that troops be sent to help him and that the country be turned over to him. He sent other men to Gazara to do away with John. To the army officers he sent letters inviting them to come to him so that he might present them with silver, gold, and gifts. He also sent others to seize Jerusalem and the mount of the temple. But someone ran ahead and brought word to John at Gazara that his father and his brothers had perished, and that Ptolemy had sent men to kill him also. On hearing this, John was utterly astounded. When the men came to kill him, he had them arrested and put to death, for he knew what they meant to do.

And Josephus says:

Now he [Simon] was the ruler of the Jews in all eight years; but at a feast came to his end. It was caused by the treachery of his son-in-law Ptolemy, who caught also his wife, and two of his sons, and kept them in bonds. He also sent some to kill John the third son, whose name was Hyrcanus; but the young man perceiving them coming, he avoided the danger he was in from them, and made haste into the city [Jerusalem], as relying on the good-will of the multitude, because of the benefits they had received from his father, and because of the hatred the same multitude bare to Ptolemy; so that when Ptolemy was endeavoring to enter the city by another gate, they drove him away, as having already admitted Hyrcanus.

Of course, none of this reflects badly on Simon or on any of his sons, except that he was unwise in his choice of son-in-law.

[DSeid]

And here is some additional information for you then.

When Jonathan the Maccabee fell into the power of Tryphon, Simon, his brother, assumed the leadership (142 BC), and after the murder of Jonathan took the latter’s place. Simon, who had made the Jewish people semi-independent of the Seleucid Greeks, reigned from 142 to 135 BC. In February 135 BC, he was assassinated at the instigation of his son-in-law Ptolemy.

Simon was followed by his third son, John Hyrcanus, whose two elder brothers, Mattathias and Judah, had been murdered, together with their father. John Hyrcanus ruled from 135 to 104 BC. According to his directions, the government of the country after his death was to be placed in the hands of his wife, and Aristobulus, the eldest of his five sons, was to receive only the high-priesthood. Aristobulus, who was not satisfied with this, cast his mother into prison and allowed her to starve there. By this means he came into the possession of the throne, which, however, he did not long enjoy, as after a year’s reign he died of a painful illness (103 BC).

Aristobulus’ successor was his eldest brother, Alexander Jannæus, who, together with his two brothers, was freed from prison by the widow of Aristobulus. Alexander reigned from 103 to 76 BC, and died during the siege of the fortress Ragaba.

Alexander was followed by his wife Alexandra, who reigned from 76 to 67 BC. Against her wishes, she was succeeded by her son Aristobulus II. (67-63 BC), who during the illness of his mother had risen against her, in order to prevent the succession of the elder son, Hyrcanus.

During the reign of Alexandra, Hyrcanus had held the office of high priest, and the rivalry between him and Aristobulus brought about a civil war, which ended with the forfeiture of the freedom of the Jewish people. Israel had to pay tribute to Rome and was placed under the supervision of the Roman governor of Syria. From 63 to 40 BC the government was in the hands of Hyrcanus II as High Priest and Ethnarch, although effective power was in the hands of Antipater the Idumaean.

[cmkeller]

I retract. In fact, having re-read my own history books, they agree with your cites…I had overlooked that paragraph.

[Zahava424]

@Anne Neville

Jews have lots of borrowed holiday customs, and pretty much always have.

The custom of reclining at the Passover Seder is borrowed from Roman dining practices. I seem to remember reading somewhere that getting rid of chametz (leavened products) is also borrowed from an earlier religious or cultural festival.

Rosh Hashanah as New Year in autumn is borrowed from other ancient calendars used in the Middle East.

I’ve read somewhere that the custom of giving gifts on Purim is borrowed from a Muslim festival.

We’ve been borrowing others’ customs and festivals and making them our own for a long time. Why stop now?

The giving of gifts on Purim began in the year the story of Purim took place, and it’s recorded in the book of Esther, which was written in about 560 BC (the Jewish year 3205). That cetainly predates Islam by a good millenium.

It certainly makes sense that the leaning on Passover is borrowed from a Roman dining practice; that detail was included in the Seder as a symbol of luxurious dining, and there’s no pretense of it being an inherently Jewish practice, just one that was known to remind us of freedom and wealth. It’s a fairly minor point in the Seder; the more important aspects of the Seder are the matza, bitter herbs, etc. which are mentioned in Exodus at the first Passover in about 1300 BC, which predates Ancient Rome by a good bit. The getting rid of leaven is also discussed in the Old Testament, in Numbers 13:3 and 13:7.

Hey, I’m not saying we don’t borrow. As Adam Sandler says, sometimes you “feel like the only kid on the block without a Christmas tree.” So Chanukah probably did get a lot of its present-giving associations from Christmas. (The presents are a bit of creative license from the gifts of money mentioned in the Talmud, I believe.) But I happen to love Chanukah-- It’s very family oriented. We all light our menorahs and stand around singing the appropriate songs about the miracles of Chanukah and eat fried foods (in commemoration of the long-lasting OIL, get it?), and the presents are really an afterthought for us.

No, Chanukah is not as big a deal to Jews as Christmas is to religious Christians, though even the OP says:

@bienville

Christmas, for me, is not a religious holiday (although I recognize that it has religious origins).

So Chanukah to me is a more significant religious event than Christmas is to him. I certainly won’t be offended if bienville chooses not to wish me a Happy Chanukah-- I just don’t understand why he feels comfortable accepting a Merry Christmas, when Christmas isn’t a religious holiday for him, but feels that

@bienville

it also kinda seems ignorant to treat Hannukah with the same weight as Christmas since as a religious observance they don’t each share the same weight in their respective religions.

If Christmas is so religiously important, why can someone who doesn’t treat it as a religious holdiay honestly accept a “Merry Christmas”?

I honestly don’t care what the banners say in Wal-Mart; I’m just confused at this seeming contradiction.

[scotandrsn]

I’m in no position to discuss the historical facts behind the story commemorated in the Channukah story. So I’ll just stick to responding to the OP.

When I first moved to California from Boston 8 years ago, I attended one of my aunt’s legendary Christmas Eve parties. I got into conversation with a little girl who was there with her parents. She informed me that her family did not celebrate Christmas, as they wer Zoroastrian. I asked her if Zoroastrianism had a holiday this time of year. she told me it did, and it was usually celebrated much as Christmas and Channukah are, with family gatherings and gift exchange. This was something of an eye opener to me at the time.

It has since become clear to me that Winter Solstice Holidays have been around for as long as civilization.

Most, whatever their pretensions are to be celebrating some event, really celebrate the fact that the fading sun is finally beginning to reverse its course, which puts everyone in a good mood.

Many of these celebrations involve lights, family gatherings, feasting, and gift giving. It’s a time of year when people want to celebrate the impending return of longer days. Sure, there may be some event the holiday is nominally commemorating, like the birth of Jesus or Mithras, or the miracle of the 8 days of oil, or the good times before Jupiter overthrew Saturn, but the real reason for any of the holidays is just to have a good time. From the linked article: “The poet Cattalus (c. 84-54 BCE) wrote that Saturnalia was ‘the merriest festival of the year’ and is ‘the best of days.’”

Someone was celebrating this time of year with warmth and friendliness long before Jesus ever walked the earth, and and they will still celebrate it that way long after he is as forgotten as Dazh Boh.

It has always been and will always be the right thing to greet your fellow man with the warmth of the season at this time of year. To agonize over the cultural weight of whatever their particular excuse for their happiness this time of year may be is to very sadly miss the point. If you don’t know for sure that the person to whom you are speaking celebrates Christmas, and you wish to avoid a social gaffe, wishing them a Happy Holiday is appropriate, as it’s a safe bet that they have one.

Happy Holidays, Dopers! Merry Christmas, you old Building and Loan!

[Voyager]

Thanks, cmkeller and all for the very interesting historical information.

My daughter had a bunch of Russian Jewish friends, all of whom celebrated New Year’s as the gift giving time. I assume that custom came from the Communists eliminating Christmas and keeping the gifts. Having a mid-winter gift bonanza seems universal in the West.