# How much would a green new deal actually cost? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 8, 2019, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-a-green-new-deal-actually-cost/829204 "2019-02-08T23:46:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-a-green-new-deal-actually-cost/829204/161 "2019-03-03T01:25:40Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Yes, of course. So of course you said the same thing about Trump’s wall, right? Wrong analogy. Better ones would be societal goals like abolitionism, women’s suffrage, the progressive platform, or civil rights. Huh. Thinking about it, conservatives fought each one of those to the death and postponed their adoption for decades. So, an even better analogy that they appeared at first glance. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-a-green-new-deal-actually-cost/829204/162 "2019-03-03T01:47:57Z")
No, actually all of those were achievable or at best vaguely defined things. The Green New Deal would be more like saying that women will make up 100% of the workforce in 10 years, or that all racism will be eliminated from the human race in 10 years, and all it will take is a forced change to human nature and a complete restructuring of the economy that will cost about 10 times more than than the government’s entire budget per year. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-a-green-new-deal-actually-cost/829204/163 "2019-03-03T01:53:59Z")
Gigobuster, are you an expert on climate change? What are your credentials? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-a-green-new-deal-actually-cost/829204/164 "2019-03-03T02:11:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > [John Deere unveils latest all-electric tractor prototype for zero-emission agriculture | Electrek](https://electrek.co/2016/12/05/john-deere-electric-tractor-prototype/) > Of course your reply does not show any awareness of how you need to clean, not your emissions, but the sources you continue to use. What sources do you think I used? Name them and prove it, or SHUT UP with the subtle ad hominem sniping. I hope you realize that your link proves my point. That tractor is a concept that is totally impractical and was designed as a demonstration of John Deere’s ability to come up with innovative ideas. It is not intended for market. Batteries are packed into every available space on that thing, and it still can’t work a large field without multiple recharges. Hell, with a 34 mile range, on some farms you’d almost have to charge it after driving it to the field. And I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the typical farmer’s field doesn’t have a 400 volt supercharging station, or whatever big-ass charger that’s needed to charge a 150 kwh battery in three hours… And that’s right at the bottom end of size and power for industrial equipment. Now do the same exercise for a bucket wheel excavator, or a paving machine, or a road grader. Let me know what you find. But congratulations - you found a prototype of a smallish, impractical concept tractor designed for farm machinery shows. So that plan for removing all fossil fuel heavy equipment in the U.S. within 10 years is right on track. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-a-green-new-deal-actually-cost/829204/165 "2019-03-03T03:23:02Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > What sources do you think I used? Name them and prove it, or SHUT UP with the subtle ad hominem sniping. The evidence is not much about them misleading you (and I really pointed out many, many examples after many years) but about what they do not tell you, which is a lot. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I hope you realize that your link proves my point. That tractor is a concept that is totally impractical and was designed as a demonstration of John Deere’s ability to come up with innovative ideas. It is not intended for market. Batteries are packed into every available space on that thing, and it still can’t work a large field without multiple recharges. Hell, with a 34 mile range, on some farms you’d almost have to charge it after driving it to the field. And I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the typical farmer’s field doesn’t have a 400 volt supercharging station, or whatever big-ass charger that’s needed to charge a 150 kwh battery in three hours… > > And that’s right at the bottom end of size and power for industrial equipment. Now do the same exercise for a bucket wheel excavator, or a paving machine, or a road grader. Let me know what you find. > > But congratulations - you found a prototype of a smallish, impractical concept tractor designed for farm machinery shows. So that plan for removing all fossil fuel heavy equipment in the U.S. within 10 years is right on track. Again that was to reply to your nonsense about not even having prototypes, BTW that was the first one, there are now two: [QUOTE] This new generation of electric tractor prototype, evolution of the Sesam tractor rewarded at Sima last, is now autonomous. The cabin disappeared, like all that was no longer needed with an electric drive. With a maximum power of 400 hp, including 270 hp for tools, the prototype has a reel and a power cable. [/QUOTE] Now some will even complain about that power cable, but: > **[John Deere Unveils An Autonomous, Electric Tractor...With A Really Long...](https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/17/john-deere-unveils-an-autonomous-electric-tractor-with-a-really-long-extension-cord/)** > > John Deere is leading the charge into electric tractors with another innovation in partnership with GridCON. For 2018, the company is not only bringing the power of electric motors to the world of tractors, it is doing so with a new fully autonomous,... > [@](#): > > The concept of not just a plug-in electric tractor, but a fully corded model likely sounds absurd at first mention, but with most farmers tilling the same fields day in and day out, season after season, it starts making a lot more sense. Why not invest the money that would have been spent on batteries on a few extensions of the farm’s power system that would enable the use of a plug-in electric tractor? > [@](#): > > Beyond just the ability to till a single farm, these new corded tractors make the prospect of neighborhood or community tractors a real possibility. If a single autonomous tractor has the ability to work 20 hours per day, with just the occasional swapping of the cord to the next hub, why not map out full communities and set them up on roaming cycles across an entire community of farms? The new possibilities that this tech opens up seem to outweigh what initially feel like limitations in the corded form factor. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-a-green-new-deal-actually-cost/829204/166 "2019-03-03T04:22:06Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > No, actually all of those were achievable or at best vaguely defined things. > > The Green New Deal would be more like saying that women will make up 100% of the workforce in 10 years, or that all racism will be eliminated from the human race in 10 years, and all it will take is a forced change to human nature and a complete restructuring of the economy that will cost about 10 times more than than the government’s entire budget per year. What is the most serious problem facing the entire world? Climate change. Global warming. The destruction of farmlands, the inevitability of massive drought, the unlivability of large swathes of the planet, the possibility that a billion people will be refugees. What can be done about that? Realistically, a thousand things, some big, some small. But that’s not a political or social slogan. When talking about increased border security, Trump didn’t yell out “a thousand things, some big, some small.” He chanted Build the Wall. Even for a relatively small, relatively focused problem this was not a reasonable solution. But it worked. Even now, when the silliness of his solution is obvious, his supporters don’t break from him. They tell questioners that they knew all along it was just a slogan, but it answered a concern they had in a concise fashion. You can spend time here going through the GND and yelling that it’s unrealistic and unachievable. People will yawn, at best. Of course it is. It’s a slogan and an abbreviation. GND is short for “realistically, a thousand things, some big, some small.” People want to hear that somebody in government is working on the most serious problem facing the world. They want to know that after years of hearing from the Republicans in office that global warming is fake news that somebody is taking the crisis seriously. Your continued opposition will just feed them, in the same way that liberal opposition to Trump feeds his base. If you don’t like the tactic, you’re a little late in your criticism. If you don’t believe in global warming, you’re a little late on that too. You will have to live in that world for every day you remain alive. Your choices are to make it worse or a little less worse. I’ve made my choice. I don’t understand yours. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-a-green-new-deal-actually-cost/829204/167 "2019-03-03T17:43:52Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Gigobuster, are you an expert on climate change? What are your credentials? Are you an expert on climate change denial? No need to show your credentials. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-a-green-new-deal-actually-cost/829204/168 "2019-03-03T18:03:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Are you an expert on climate change denial? > > No need to show your credentials. No, that’s not how Great Debates works. If he is going to make claims, he needs to back them up, with facts, not opinions. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-a-green-new-deal-actually-cost/829204/169 "2019-03-03T18:22:34Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, that’s not how Great Debates works. If he is going to make claims, he needs to back them up, with facts, not opinions. So, that’s a yes then? Or is your climate science denial more of an amateur thing, a bit of a hobby on the side? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-a-green-new-deal-actually-cost/829204/170 "2019-03-03T19:09:00Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, that’s not how Great Debates works. If he is going to make claims, he needs to back them up, with facts, not opinions. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, that’s a yes then? > > Or is your climate science denial more of an amateur thing, a bit of a hobby on the side? BTW that shows that **D’Anconia** is an ignorant of my posting history on this subject, I always defer and link to data, experts and scientists when this subject appears, not just my say so; as science writer Peter Hadfield says, that is not really important, what is important is to report what the media (and more usually right wing media) gets wrong about this issue in their reporting. Over here, what was said about John Deere and the ongoing solar projects in San Bernandino county is evidence (That comes also from the horse’s mouth), and cited already. What **D’Anconia** attempts is not even a killing the messenger illogical move, but just a “nipping and nitpicking” of the messenger, a less effective move even as in reality it avoids dealing with the fact that the earlier linked report about a solar project being shelved does not mean ‘All California environmentalists are banning solar power projects and therefore we are doomed’, it is a crappy argument. The evidence shows that the ones out there spinning that news to report that there is an effort, even in conservative California areas, to ban solar projects missed the mark in a gross way. (Even in the post I replied about this issue, it is clear that the poster wanted to make the point that it was the progressive environmentalists -in a mostly conservative area of California :rolleyes: - who opposed all solar power projects, so as to keep that wrong narrative going; no, they are not opposed to solar power projects in other places in their county or on their properties. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-a-green-new-deal-actually-cost/829204/171 "2019-03-04T05:41:27Z")
Are you an expert on climate change? Oh wait, you said you link to experts. Which “expert” told you that Sandy was a hurricane when it landed in NY? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-a-green-new-deal-actually-cost/829204/172 "2019-03-04T06:23:36Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Are you an expert on climate change? Oh wait, you said you link to experts. Which “expert” told you that Sandy was a hurricane when it landed in NY? I reported later that was not quite accurate then, so more ignorance there. In any case NOAA (I think there are experts there, so you are out of luck as usual 🙂 ) has reported that: [http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/tcfaq/E23.html](http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/tcfaq/E23.html) > [@](#): > > - > - Indicates that the hurricane center did not make a U.S. landfall (or substantially weakened before making landfall), but did produce the indicated hurricane force winds over land. In this case, central pressure is given for the hurricane’s point of closest approach. So that is why Sandy is counted anyhow. The context then was that deniers used that borderline situation to claim somehow that therefore the scientists claiming that more intense hurricanes could come were wrong as they were not showing off. Of course since Sandy we had 6 hitting the mainland USA and 2 of them category 4. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-a-green-new-deal-actually-cost/829204/173 "2019-03-04T06:36:03Z")
And I have to notice that nowhere there **D’Anconia** explained the face plant that some sources out there had by implying that solar projects were not being approved because of “liberals”, when the county is mostly conservative and it actually had other solar projects going on. It is really way past the time for posters from the conservative side to demand better from their sources \* rather than trying to malign the ones that notice how crappy those sources are. - Or better yet, remove some links and unfriend those. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-a-green-new-deal-actually-cost/829204.md?page=8)