# How much would Universal MEDICARE cost? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-universal-medicare-cost/815823 "2018-06-10T14:28:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-universal-medicare-cost/815823/61 "2018-06-15T13:36:28Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Are you saying that your health insurance policies cover all those cutting-edge, marginal gain treatments? Depends on your plan. Unions often have gold plated insurance plans. Medicare is also pretty much a gold plated plan because it covers only seniors, so we don’t have to spare much expense. Although eventually it will bankrupt us. But for now there are few restrictions on what Medicare patients can get. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-universal-medicare-cost/815823/62 "2018-06-15T13:37:46Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > But aren’t we lead to believe that there is no restriction on such treatments in the USA medical system? > For anyone to be denied it, wouldn’t that mean that there is some sort of decision-making body that makes that choice? Yes. And if you don’t like one decisionmaking body, you can hire another. Or you can crowdfund treatment if your story is sympathetic(as in you were denied by a greedy private insurance company). I’d bet that it’s pretty hard for Britons to get sympathy from fellow citizens when NHS denies them. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-universal-medicare-cost/815823/63 "2018-06-15T14:40:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’d bet that it’s pretty hard for Britons to get sympathy from fellow citizens when NHS denies them. Firstly, [how much would you bet?](https://inews.co.uk/news/health/albert-thompson-londoner-denied-cancer-care-fundraising-page/) (I just picked the first relevant and recent Google link there). Secondly, arguing that “having to beg for money for treatment” is a good metric to compare healthcare systems by is frankly insane. Remember that pre-ACA somewhere between 20,000-45,000 people (depending on which source you use) used to die each year due to lack of insurance, and that’s not counting the lives ruined due to medical bankruptcies. If (scaling down for comparative population size) 5000-8500 people were dying in the UK each year from lack of access to healthcare - particularly from preventable or treatable conditions - the public would be storming Parliament. Yet here you are, arguing that the society that is letting people die off unnecessarily by the tens of thousands is somehow more charitable because they hold more spaghetti dinner fundraisers. I look forward to your argument that your car is better than my car because, although it has a tendency to explode occasionally, it comes with more dashboard features as standard. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-universal-medicare-cost/815823/64 "2018-06-15T19:43:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Never mind that the objective evidence in every country in the world is that UHC substantially lowers per-capita costs because of very significant differences in how the plans are structured and administered; they just don’t believe it, or find it convenient not to believe it. Complete but telling non-sequitor: Never mind that the objective evidence in every country in the world is that global temperatures are rising and that human activity is responsible; they just don’t believe it, or find it convenient not to believe it. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-universal-medicare-cost/815823/65 "2018-06-15T20:13:29Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Having been in the business of encouraging entrepreneurship, I don’t know how many times I’ve seen people stymied by needing to keep their existing plan. There is an easier way to do this. Just uncouple employment and health insurance. Currently the reason people pay through their employer is that it is tax advantaged because of the salary caps of WW2. McCain proposed eliminating the tax advantage and giving a tax credit to each individual but he was attacked for it being a tax increase by Obama and the idea went dormant for a while. It would also have none of the downsides of a government run system which is 25%-50% higher taxes which would also discourage entrepreneurship. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-universal-medicare-cost/815823/66 "2018-06-15T20:33:24Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Firstly, [how much would you bet?](https://inews.co.uk/news/health/albert-thompson-londoner-denied-cancer-care-fundraising-page/) (I just picked the first relevant and recent Google link there). > > Secondly, arguing that “having to beg for money for treatment” is a good metric to compare healthcare systems by is frankly insane. Remember that pre-ACA somewhere between 20,000-45,000 people (depending on which source you use) used to die each year due to lack of insurance, and that’s not counting the lives ruined due to medical bankruptcies. If (scaling down for comparative population size) 5000-8500 people were dying in the UK each year from lack of access to healthcare - particularly from preventable or treatable conditions - the public would be storming Parliament. Yet here you are, arguing that the society that is letting people die off unnecessarily by the tens of thousands is somehow more charitable because they hold more spaghetti dinner fundraisers. > > I look forward to your argument that your car is better than my car because, although it has a tendency to explode occasionally, it comes with more dashboard features as standard. The studies that show 20-40,000 people die from lack of insurance are all horribly flawed. It is not [clear](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2699915/)at all that going on [Medicare](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047272707001764)is associated with better health. Some [studies](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7979836)have even shown that those on Medicare and Medicaid have worse outcomes than those with no insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-universal-medicare-cost/815823/67 "2018-06-15T21:43:38Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > There is an easier way to do this. Just uncouple employment and health insurance. Currently the reason people pay through their employer is that it is tax advantaged because of the salary caps of WW2. McCain proposed eliminating the tax advantage and giving a tax credit to each individual but he was attacked for it being a tax increase by Obama and the idea went dormant for a while. > It would also have none of the downsides of a government run system which is 25%-50% higher taxes which would also discourage entrepreneurship. It gets weird though because my current employer is self-insured(?). Even if they switched the part they’re paying me over to salary, I can’t get exactly that plan on my own. I think. I’m guilty of posting about a topic I haven’t researched well (although I ought to research it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-universal-medicare-cost/815823/68 "2018-06-15T21:48:53Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > There is an easier way to do this. Just uncouple employment and health insurance. Currently the reason people pay through their employer is that it is tax advantaged because of the salary caps of WW2. I agree that this is an excellent thing to do. > [@](#): > > McCain proposed eliminating the tax advantage and giving a tax credit to each individual but he was attacked for it being a tax increase by Obama and the idea went dormant for a while. > It would also have none of the downsides of a government run system which is 25%-50% higher taxes which would also discourage entrepreneurship. But tax credits won’t do shit. Unless you are saying that individuals are going to be able to cut as good a deal with healthcare providers and insurance companies as, say IBM. When I retired I checked the cost of plans under ACA, and they were far more expensive and covered less than continuing my work plan through COBRA, though I paid all the premiums. The only reasonable way of decoupling insurance from employment is UHC. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-universal-medicare-cost/815823/69 "2018-06-15T21:59:39Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The studies that show 20-40,000 people die from lack of insurance are all horribly flawed. It is not [clear](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2699915/)at all that going on [Medicare](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047272707001764)is associated with better health. Some [studies](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7979836)have even shown that those on Medicare and Medicaid have worse outcomes than those with no insurance. Here is a quote from the second link > [@](#): > > Our results suggest that, in its first 10 years, the establishment of universal health insurance for the elderly had no discernible impact on elderly mortality. However, we find a substantial reduction in the elderly’s exposure to out of pocket medical expenditure risk. Specifically, we estimate that the introduction of Medicare was associated with a 40% decline in out of pocket spending for the top quartile of the out of pocket spending distribution. This is for the first 10 years of Medicare, when many would be too far along to let Medicare have much of an impact, The cost savings though are striking since health care was much cheaper then. As for the 3rd link, it says that the poor have worse outcomes than the rich. It claims the Medicare results, which are not clear, are age adjusted. But not how. Someone waiiving Medicare at 65 is still working, and someone choosing to work is probably healthier than someone not choosing to work. The poor who have to work would go on Medicare anyway since it would be better than their poor coverage or ACA coverage. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-universal-medicare-cost/815823/70 "2018-06-15T22:25:09Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The studies that show 20-40,000 people die from lack of insurance are all horribly flawed. It is not [clear](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2699915/)at all that going on [Medicare](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047272707001764)is associated with better health. Some [studies](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7979836)have even shown that those on Medicare and Medicaid have worse outcomes than those with no insurance. If you are arguing that people who do not receive reliable modern medical care have better outcomes than those who do, that doesn’t say much for your cites. I mean maybe you could start a thread on whether modern medicine actually do work at all. But I think untill then the general assumption is that it does. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-would-universal-medicare-cost/815823.md?page=3)