# How near are we to solving the problem of recharging electric cars? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413 "2008-12-02T22:26:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/61 "2008-12-03T20:01:29Z")
Replacing the trailer is easy if they’re standardised - just hook on a new one. The logistics is a killer, though. Fuelling stations would have to be vastly larger than they are now. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/62 "2008-12-03T20:02:28Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The solution exists; the nickel-iron battery (invented by Edison,ca. 1907). The solution is to have the battery pack carried on a detachable trailer. You merely detach and attach a freshly charged pack. the Ni-Fe battery will last for years and are cheap to build. Would you honestly consider hauling a trailer around behind you? How is that different than driving an SUV full of batteries (or as I like to call it, a Ford Escape)? ---
**Author:** ![Redwing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dfb087/32.png) [@Redwing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redwing)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/63 "2008-12-03T20:06:28Z")
Where do you keep the trailer? There’s no space on my street as it is, adding a trailer behind each car certainly wouldn’t help matters. How would you park it in Boston, or New York, or San Francisco? How do you keep road conditions from detatching it? How does it handle sitting in the cold for week while you’re visiting family in another state? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/64 "2008-12-03T20:06:30Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I mean…I know I’m not going to be to keen on having to drive around with a trailer hooked to the back of my car all the time. That’s the shitty part. Tootling down the freeway with a frigging trailer bouncing up and down is fine if you’re in a loaded 1970 Kingswood Estate station wagon with a 454 four-barrel carb engine that rides like an ocean liner anyway. But getting the suspension of the trailer to work with the suspension of a lightweight fuel efficient electric car or hybrid seems like too much to ask of any engineer. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/65 "2008-12-03T20:20:53Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Ah, my confusion. I thought you had said someting about punks with “bolt cutters and rubber gloves” … oh yeah, you did. Yes, and I’m sure there’ll be some of _both._ Just like now, when there are people who key the apint, while other people slash tires. > [@](#): > > Locking covers is easy Lots of things are easy, but they’re _not_ done for one reason or another. The idle cutoff switch (now becoming standard on many cars and offers a 10% fuel savings for very little money) was invented in the 1960s, but nobody bothered to put it on a mass produced car until Toyota invented the Prius. > [@](#): > > and besides you are missing **Sam** ’s point: the future transportation infrastructure is highly unlikely to consist of a single approach. Your perspective that a single solution is needed for all market segments is illustrated further by your next comment: > Of course many want that range, even if few actually need it. A range extender (the EREV approach, along with PHEVs) gives them that. Pure BEVs will fit for other market segments. It all depends upon what you mean by a “single solution.” If by “single solution” you mean a vehicle which is able to take advantage of a wide variety of energy sources, then yes, I am. > [@](#): > > As for the wisdom of Tesla’s approach … well they succeeded in changing EV’s image from the golf cart to the roadster. That was important and benefits the whole field. But they ran into some problems with execution and now the market conditions make high end toys a tougher sell. Few expected that the economy would sour that bad. GMs EV-1 broke the “golf cart image” long before Tesla, and its _not_ the declining economy that’s giving Tesla problems, they were having them **long** before the economy went into the tank. They misjudged where battery technology would be by now. > [@](#): > > Doubt it. Most don’t need rapid charge especially at home. They need the care ready to go by the next morning. Most people didn’t “need” an SUV, but they sure _wanted_ them. > [@](#): > > Most electric cars, at least in the near to medium term, will be EREVs and PHEVs - it accomplishes most of the good of the EV (energy independence, significantly decreased green house gas emissions even if all power came from a coal fired plants, decreased operating costs, etc.) with the freedom and flexibility of an ICE in today’s infrastructure environment. Which ones would those be? Outside of the Tesla, all the electric cars I’ve seen for sale are little pissant things which can’t do over about 30 MPH. Utterly impractical for a lot of people where the speed limit on most roads is 45 MPH and routinely ignored. > [@](#): > > Actually I don’t think that airbags drain much power, nor pressure sensors. But heat and especially AC do. That point is valid and part of the GM development has been to come up with ways to reduce that drain. Range with AC running will be much decreased just like gas mileage goes down now. If you make lots of short trips (under 10 miles), you won’t run the engine long enough to recharge the battery, and the car will go flat. And **Cecil** and Mythbusters both proved that driving a car with the windows rolled up and the AC on uses _less_ gas than driving it with the windows down and the AC **off**. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure what you are talking about with the charging stations. Any 110 line will do or any 220 if the car has that port. Rapid charge (like 10 minutes) really will not be something set up at home. That is just moving too much electricity too quickly for that circumstance and again really is not needed by most consumers esp at that location. Again, if you try to recharge something with a _large_ battery capacity like a Tesla using 110V, it’ll take you 30 hours. GMs EV-1 used 220V and an induction charger. > [@](#): > > At flat rate costs (no off-peak discount) it is cheaper to run an EV than an ICE by far. Yes, but you don’t get your gas bill for your car all in one whack. Its spread out over the month, so it appears smaller. > [@](#): > > It will indeed be up to the power companies to figure out how to entice people to charge primarily off peak. It is in their best interest to do so. It was in the Big Threes interest to develop small cars long before now. If you think that the Big Three are alone in being entrenched in stupidity, you’re sadly mistaken. > [@](#): > > From there they will try to come up with ways to allow themselves to “borrow” power from your car when it is parked as well (V2G) … and that will be a hard sell. Its also a pretty pointless technology, except in situations where grid power is not readily available. > [@](#): > > Which segues into the power grid issue. The current grid could handle more than 80% of all of today’s autos being EVs if charged at off-peak. Still the infrastructure is a shambles. Yes I also hope to see investments in the electric infrastructure as part of a stimulus package. Again, however, will it be done the right way? In a situation like post-Katrina New Orleans, not being able to charge your car will dramatically slow recovery efforts, even if there’s no fuck ups with FEMA, etc. > [@](#): > > Actually these are the uses for which pure BEV is _ideal_. See, for example, delivery trucks from [Smith.](http://www.smithelectricvehicles.com/) 150 mile range on one charge and rapid recharge at central locations for the fleet. Perfect for city routes. Several Chinese concerns are creating similar products - some were used as garbage trucks and shuttle buses during the Olympics. The fuel and maintenance savings become huge with the huge miles these vehicles log. Yes, but the people I know who do deliveries and service calls log **hundreds** of miles, not 150, but two to four hundred in a day. Adding in things like refrigeration units reduces the range and carrying capacities of such vehicles when you’re talking about electric models. > [@](#): > > Long distance travel would be ill served by pure BEV and someone who does lots of it would be better of with another sort of vehicle. As would anyone hauling a boat or a trailer, even if it were only for short distances. > [@](#): > > Diesel (and sure designer deisel from algae or other plant source) or cellulosic ethanol extenders, or natural gas as Pickens would prefer will replace some gasoline there. Those will aslo fit into the exsisting infrastructure the smoothest. > [@](#): > > But between BEV and EREVs, there are EVs that would meet the needs of most of the rest of us. Never said PHEVs were a bad idea, however, until the battery range issue is solved, _most_ people will find that a BEV will **not** work for them. Sure, they could handle much of their driving with it, but the times when they need to go beyond the range of the vehicle, they’ll have to find an alternative, and given that mass transit is **not** an option for many of those times, they’ll have to have a second car. Or, they could just skip that and buy a diesel or PHEV, or some other kind of vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/66 "2008-12-03T20:21:16Z")
Quoth **even sven** : > [@](#): > > Let us not forget that electric cars don’t actually solve any problems- the best they do is relocate the problem to your nearest power plant, which probably isn’t all that green. Emissions will be somewhat better, but it’s no environmental magic bullet. Alternative electrical generation and alternative transportation both have their problems separately, but the funny thing is that when you look at them together, the problems complement each other and largely cancel out. The biggest problem with most alternative electrical generation technologies is that they’re unreliable: Even in someplace with 95% strong winds, your windmills still have 5% downtime. But if a significant portion of your electrical needs are for charging the batteries on your car, then it doesn’t matter if you don’t have power for that 5% of the time. You just install one of those smart meters (which would pay for themselves very quickly), and set your car to charge when the cost is below some threshold, and only use expensive power if necessary to get fully charged before 6:00 AM (or whatever time you need). Presto, you’re making effective use of clean windmill power, without the downtime problem. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/67 "2008-12-03T20:28:31Z")
> [@Redwing](#): > > Where do you keep the trailer? There’s no space on my street as it is, adding a trailer behind each car certainly wouldn’t help matters. How would you park it in Boston, or New York, or San Francisco? > > How do you keep road conditions from detatching it? How does it handle sitting in the cold for week while you’re visiting family in another state? What about the parking delays caused by people having to do all kinds of weird manovers to back into a parking space while hauling those things? Then there’s the folks who’ll have no idea what to do when they start to lose control while they’re driving and proceed to cause a big ass pile up on the interstates. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/68 "2008-12-03T20:32:33Z")
The biggest problem with a trailer is backing up. Butt of the car goes one way, trailer has other ideas. What if though the trailer slid into the back of the car? Like say a big cavity in the back so it wasn’t taking up much room. Engine stuff could be in the rear and the hood area could hold the new trunk. The bumper could even flip open and have a secondary job of holding the battery in. Then to save on friction and wear the battery could have it’s wheels pulled up into the car. Something like that wouldn’t even have to look like cars as we know them but for marketing reasons mimicking old body styles would be good. If the car doesn’t look like a car people might avoid it just so they don’t look “strange” or cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/69 "2008-12-03T20:36:21Z")
But isn’t the cost and compexity of the trailer beginning to approach the cost and complexity of the car in that scenario? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/70 "2008-12-03T20:43:45Z")
A car with a trailer attached (besides being, IMHO, a hazard for many people to attempt to drive) wouldn’t fit into my garage. It would be one more problem in snow or inclimate conditions. It would increase traffic and probably increase accidents. While it may be ‘easy’ to change out trailers to swap out for a fully charged one it would be a major pain in the ass to do so. I think the trailer idea would die still born without ever coming close to getting off the ground, for a lot of reasons (most listed already by posters up thread). We’ll either figure out ways of making batteries more efficient, smaller, lighter, etc, or we won’t go the full electric vehicle way, and instead do some kind of hybrid…or some other alternative fuel. I still think fuel cells are going to be the way we’ll eventually go…the refueling and performance models for fuel cell vehicles are very similar to our current ICE model, and I think that will be the deciding factor. Well, that and figuring out how to make all the hydrogen or mine all the methane (or whatever we end up using for the conversion)… -XT ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/71 "2008-12-03T21:06:29Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But isn’t the cost and compexity of the trailer beginning to approach the cost and complexity of the car in that scenario? Not really. Some European cars use an engine in the rear design. The battery it’s self is nothing more then a very large laptop battery design with wheels (and the bumper acting as the clip). Open clip, slide out old battery, slide new one in, close the clip. Then fold the battery wheels off the ground under the car because it’s eleventibillion times heavier then a laptop battery and needs wheels to move. Fold up wheels tech has existed for ambulance stretchers for a very long time, which coincidentally is what you’d need if you tried to move the car battery without wheels. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/72 "2008-12-03T21:06:41Z")
I was just using a cordless drill. The same battery pack also fits an impact driver, a circular saw, and other tools. The battery pack is standardized. (I grant, all by the same manufacturer. But standardization for vehicle battery packs could be imposed.) I have several flashlights, which use 1, 2, 3 or 4 “D” batteries. And I walked past my gas grill, whereupon I remembered the “old days” when I actually owned the propane tanks. Now of course I just take the empties to the local purveyor and swap them for pre-filled tanks. I seemingly neither own nor formally lease them. I just borrow them, apparently, and the dealer both maintains and replaces them as needed. So conceivably you could drive into the “gas station” for a battery swap. You stop the vehicle over a service pit which contains an attendant and a power lift. Attendant releases the “quick release” holding your battery pack in the standardized battery well, and lowers it out. He replaces it with a fresh battery pack. Meanwhile you insert your credit card in the slot, and you are charged for the difference between the remaining charge in your incoming battery and the fresh charge on your outgoing battery, plus some kind of fee. Or the fee is built in, per KwH or something, just like profit is built into the pump price of gas. Elapsed time, about the same as waiting for a pump to fill your gas tank. The no-longer-gas station hooks the battery up to a high capacity charging system. Depending on the speed of charging available, it would be simple to calculate the number of units that need to be on hand to serve any expected demand by customers. No particular innovative technology needed, no breakthroughs. Standardize a battery pack in terms of size, fasteners, and electrical terminals. Whatever type of battery or batteries doesn’t really matter. And replicate the suitable battery receptacle on vehicles. I’m envisioning something on the order of a steamer trunk, weighing several hundred pounds. A small, one person commuter car might hold a single unit. A larger, 4 passenger multipurpose vehicle might hold 2. And there may be a place for that bigger, long trip and/or short term towing model that has room for 3 or 4. Doesn’t really matter, since payment would be for electricity used. (After, of course, the initial cost of purchase of the vehicle containing, presumably, its initial battery or optional batteries.) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/73 "2008-12-03T21:24:14Z")
**Tuckerfan** , that many miles in one shift? Remember that fleet use presumes a central rapid recharge point that can recharge batteries in roughly10 minutes. City delivery routes, stop and go traffic, taxi routes, bus routes, garbage trucks … all they need to do is to schedule a 10 minute cofee break or shift change at a recharge point within that 150 miles. “Can take advantage of a wide variety of energy sources”? Electricity can be generated in a wide variety of ways, no? To address your obsession with Tesla … I have no idea what is entailed with wiring up their rapid charger, but if done (and anyone who can afford that car can afford to do so) it is 3.5 hrs from fully depleted. Of course most days they are just topping off from usual daily commutes - most days they are driving under 40 miles not nearly 300, and those days a few hours on a 110 would do just fine. Again, driving cross country is not a task well suited for pure BEVs even though an EREV would do it just fine. Some of us could manage to rent a car for those rare occassions if we felt that otherwise a pure BEV was the best option. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/74 "2008-12-03T21:30:38Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Doesn’t really matter, since payment would be for electricity used. (After, of course, the initial cost of purchase of the vehicle containing, presumably, its initial battery or optional batteries.) I like your idea (quick exchange stations), but a large cost factor in exchange is the battery structure itself. AFAIK no one has yet invented a battery that can be recharged indefinitely; all of them lose a little oomph every time they cycle. There aren’t many cycles available until the big, heavy pack is useless and has to be discarded or remanufactured. So that would have to be factored into the replacement cost. I am contrasting this to the cost of fabricating a gas tank and refilling it until it wears out, which is negligible. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/75 "2008-12-03T21:43:44Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I like your idea (quick exchange stations), but a large cost factor in exchange is the battery structure itself. AFAIK no one has yet invented a battery that can be recharged indefinitely; all of them lose a little oomph every time they cycle. There aren’t many cycles available until the big, heavy pack is useless and has to be discarded or remanufactured. So that would have to be factored into the replacement cost. > > I am contrasting this to the cost of fabricating a gas tank and refilling it until it wears out, which is negligible. Even the relatively cheap, crappy ‘old tech’ lead acid battery in my Jeep right now can be expected to last at least 3 or 4 years. Granted it isn’t discharged to depletion before recharge, but neither would a motive-force vehicle battery either. Unless you want to be towed in for service. Those propane tanks with the fancy new fill valves also have an initial cost. And (especially given the “it ain’t mine” mindset) they take some pretty heavy wear and tear. Yet a number of companies apparently make a reasonable profit by charging for an exchange of empty for full. Again, an analogy to current lead acid batteries-- when mine finally dies, I have to pay a “disposal fee” in addition to the cost of purchasing a replacement. To me, a single dead battery has less than zero value. And yet a friend put himself through college collecting spent batteries (sometimes paying a small fee) from gas stations, then selling them en mass to battery recyclers. In quantity, the batteries and/or their components have some remaining value. So that purveyor of battery swaps might not be a total loss even at the end of each unit’s service life, providing he has a number of them. In short, I agree with you that replacement of battery pack would be a component of the total cost. But who would bear it and how it would be spaced over the commercial life of the battery pack can be decided by the market. The question surely doesn’t negate the advantages of the system. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/76 "2008-12-03T21:45:32Z")
Other problems with the quick change battery station idea are capital costs (presently car batteries cost something like $10-20k IIRC) and space…as well as training (someone would have to be keeping a close eye on these things, both to ensure they are fully charging as well as from a safety perspective). Think about how many people go into a service station a day. Say, for example, that 100 people go into a service station every day to fill up. Now…project that onto these folks who are going to be swapping out their batteries. If I drive in to swap my battery, that means the service station will have to have a fresh, recharged battery all ready for me (this leaves out the cost of the ‘quick change’ hardware btw…and the training for the techs to do this operation, or the further cost for the automation hardware). The battery they take from me won’t be charged up for some period of time (and it will need to be tested to make sure it’s meeting some performance characteristics as well as safety standards). So…for everyone who comes in to change out their battery the fuel station (or whatever) is going to have to have a battery on hand and fully charged up. That’s a pretty big capital investment right there…and that doesn’t even get into the initial capital cost of all the other equipment, or the recharge costs, maintenance, personnel, etc. Or the costs of periodic replacement as batteries wear out. And it’s going to take up a lot of space as well. And this would be for just one fuel station. Project that on several million (or hundred million if these cars got fully adopted). Suddenly we are talking about real money…billions or 10’s of billion. Hundred perhaps. I just don’t think such a scenario is realistic…not with our current technology. The batteries are too big, to bulky, and too expensive to try and do a swap out. Maybe if you could make batteries that cost $1000, weight a tenth as much, had standardized connections (another problem…like herding cats), with similar performance characteristics to today’s top of the line car batteries…MAYBE it would be workable then. But not as things are today. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/77 "2008-12-03T21:51:54Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Tuckerfan** , that many miles in one shift? Or more. It all depends upon how their day goes. Fedreal regulations allow them to be behind the wheel for 15 hours or so. > [@](#): > > Remember that fleet use presumes a central rapid recharge point that can recharge batteries in roughly10 minutes. City delivery routes, stop and go traffic, taxi routes, bus routes, garbage trucks … all they need to do is to schedule a 10 minute cofee break or shift change at a recharge point within that 150 miles. Using a technology which hasn’t been invented yet, much less had a standardization set. Then you have to factor in the additional delays caused by stopping to recharge. Enough delays, and that means you have to buy more vehicles and hire more staff. > [@](#): > > “Can take advantage of a wide variety of energy sources”? Electricity can be generated in a wide variety of ways, no? But you’re limited in whom you can buy electricity from. Enron gamed the system once before, and despite government promises that such a thing could never happen again, we’ve seen that similar gaming can be done with a number of industries. A car like Kamen’s stirling powered PHEV makes it harder for any one cartel to put the screws to you. > [@](#): > > To address your obsession with Tesla … I have no idea what is entailed with wiring up their rapid charger, but if done (and anyone who can afford that car can afford to do so) it is 3.5 hrs from fully depleted. Of course most days they are just topping off from usual daily commutes - most days they are driving under 40 miles not nearly 300, and those days a few hours on a 110 would do just fine. Well, the Tesla is not a good vehicle choice if you’re trying to figure out the average driving habits of Americans. Nor, really, is the national average of “less than 40 miles.” since people in places like NYC skew the numbers low. A majority of the people in the town I live in, have much longer than 40 mile commutes to work. > [@](#): > > Again, driving cross country is not a task well suited for pure BEVs even though an EREV would do it just fine. Some of us could manage to rent a car for those rare occassions if we felt that otherwise a pure BEV was the best option. IME, the range afforded by a BEV is utterly useless. Its _nothing_ for me to put more than 40 miles on a car in a day, just going to work. And that’s _without_ a multi-hour commute. If I want to go out to eat and have a _decent_ meal, I’ve got to go over 40 miles _one way_. Add to that in the winter time at least half the trip will be in the dark, with the heat and radio on, and you’re really eating into the range. And there’s the issue of what to do when your car runs out of juice along the way. Is it towed? Do you get a boost from someone? If the only option is to be towed, then that _really_ cuts into the driving range, because folks aren’t going to want to let the charge drop too low before plugging up. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/78 "2008-12-03T21:59:49Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > … no one has yet invented a battery that can be recharged indefinitely… Indefinitely? No. Close enough? [Yes.](http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20061026005107&newsLang=en) > [@](#): > > Even after 15,000 cycles the cells still retained over 85% of their original charge capacity. … They were deep charged and discharged meaning they were taken to 100% charge and 0% charge respectively during the 6-minute cycles. Although tests involved full charges and discharges, partial charging and discharging of the battery does not appear to impact the life or the holding charge capacity of the batteries i.e. they exhibit no memory loss. > > In theory, a 15,000 charge cycle life would translate into a battery that would last greater than 40 years if it was charged daily, as would be the case in an electric vehicle or plug-in hybrid electric vehicle environment. However, in practice, other wear and tear factors would realistically limit the actual life of the batteries to probably 20 years. GM is aiming for at least 4000 charge cycles (about 10 years of real world use). ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/79 "2008-12-03T22:05:09Z")
Yes, **Tucker** a pure BEV might not be a good choice for _you_. Or for someone who will drive 300 miles without a possible ten minute break at a central location. :rolleyes: As for your claim that the technology hasn’t been invented yet, I’ve already linked to companies selling it now. Check out that Smith link. (They’ve contracted with Valence if you are interested in the battery players). And Phoenix has working vehicles with working rapid recharge appropriate for fleet use. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/80 "2008-12-03T22:05:37Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Other problems with the quick change battery station idea are capital costs (presently car batteries cost something like $10-20k IIRC) Replacement packs for the Prius are around $5K or less. > [@](#): > > and space…as well as training (someone would have to be keeping a close eye on these things, both to ensure they are fully charging as well as from a safety perspective). Think about how many people go into a service station a day. Say, for example, that 100 people go into a service station every day to fill up. Try 100+ people an _hour_ in some of the stations I’ve worked in. > [@](#): > > Now…project that onto these folks who are going to be swapping out their batteries. > > If I drive in to swap my battery, that means the service station will have to have a fresh, recharged battery all ready for me (this leaves out the cost of the ‘quick change’ hardware btw…and the training for the techs to do this operation, or the further cost for the automation hardware). The battery they take from me won’t be charged up for some period of time (and it will need to be tested to make sure it’s meeting some performance characteristics as well as safety standards). So…for everyone who comes in to change out their battery the fuel station (or whatever) is going to have to have a battery on hand and fully charged up. [That’s a pretty big capital investment right there…and that doesn’t even get into the initial capital cost of all the other equipment, or the recharge costs, maintenance, personnel, etc. Or the costs of periodic replacement as batteries wear out. And it’s going to take up a lot of space as well. Yup, and initial insurance costs will be high because nobody has a base line to estimate costs. > [@](#): > > And this would be for just one fuel station. Project that on several million (or hundred million if these cars got fully adopted). Suddenly we are talking about real money…billions or 10’s of billion. Hundred perhaps. In 2003, [Accenture estimated that it would cost $300 billion and take 10 years to convert the country to natural gas powered cars.](http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2003/06/01/343389/index.htm) > [@](#): > > I just don’t think such a scenario is realistic…not with our current technology. The batteries are too big, to bulky, and too expensive to try and do a swap out. Maybe if you could make batteries that cost $1000, weight a tenth as much, had standardized connections (another problem…like herding cats), with similar performance characteristics to today’s top of the line car batteries…MAYBE it would be workable then. But not as things are today. > > -XT The whole “battery swap” idea is one of those that looks good on paper, but not so well in reality. I’ve had to swap batteries out on electric forklifts, and its a pain in the ass, and even with automation, its not a very fast process simply because of the weights involved. (Yeah, the machines _can_ move the stuff around fast, but the problem with that is if something goes wrong, you’ve got 2K+ lbs of batteries moving fast in the wrong direction. Bad things will happen.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413.md?page=5)