# How near are we to solving the problem of recharging electric cars? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413 "2008-12-02T22:26:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/101 "2008-12-04T07:41:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **Sam Stone** :I wasn’t aware that we were ignoring it. Plug-in hybrids probably are the best solution for most vehicles in the short term (until ultracapacitors become economically practical, or until we have a hydrogen infrastructure in place, or whatever). We’re already making hybrids, and it can’t be that hard to just attach a power cord to one. Its not. You can buy a kit or have someone hack your Prius for you now. Assuming, of course, you don’t mind voiding your warranty. Toyota’s not convinced of the safety of them yet, which is why they haven’t done it, but they plan on introducing it into future models of the Prius within a few years. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/102 "2008-12-04T13:11:35Z")
Information on the [PHEV Prius.](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/07/toyota-announce.html) > [@](#): > > The Toyota Plug-in HV—certified for public road-use by Japan’s Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport—uses a NiMH battery pack and has an all-electric range of 13 kilometers (8 miles) under the 10-15 cycle with a maximum speed of 100 km/h (62 mph). > > In its press release, Toyota said that: > > ``` > Although challenges still exist in the development of pure electric vehicles such as a limited cruising range and issues related to cost, TMC still views plug-in hybrid vehicles as a promising technology for allowing electricity to serve as a viable power source for automobiles and is committed to their continued development as a key environmental technology. > > ``` Since then they have moved up their [timetable.](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/08/toyota-to-accel.html) > [@](#): > > Watanabe said that Toyota would advance its delivery of plug-ins for fleet deployment to 2009 from 2010, and was planning series production of a next-generation electric vehicle in the early 2010s. Not great specs but its a start. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/103 "2008-12-04T13:22:14Z")
[You can hack a Prius and do better than that.](http://news.cnet.com/Coming-soon-Cars-that-get-100-miles-per-gallon/2100-11389_3-6064584.html) Of course, that adds $10K to the price. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/104 "2008-12-04T13:25:10Z")
I wonder if we could just increase the charge rate by a little bit, without the need for ultracapacitors, if we could have plugs next to the gas pumps at convenience stores so we can recharge a little while pumping gas. Now, it wouldn’t work very well if you’re trying to pump and go, but it might make a marginal difference if you’re going in to use the restroom, or to buy some stuff where the store’s real profit lies… I smell business opportunity here 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/105 "2008-12-04T13:49:57Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I’m not any kind of electrical engineer, but I have always wondered if it would be possible to have some sort of electrical car with two battery banks. One bank would be powering the car while the other charged from a magnetic generator built on the wheels, or possibly from a small wind generator. When bank one gets discharged to a certain level, the onboard computer switches to bank two and bank one starts recharging. What does two banks gain you other than extra dead weight? You can charge while discharging the same battery; your gas-powered car does that now. As far as charging from the car’s motion, other than regenerative braking or a wind turbine on a stationary vehicle, you are just using the car’s engine to power the motion that powers the generator to get electricity – it’s a loss at every stage, unless you have a perpetual motion model. Better to not expend the energy in the first place. You can’t win and TANSTAFL. * * * Looks like Hawaii is tackling this problem head-on with a plan for recharging stations: > **[Hawaii Joins Better Place Electric Car Network](https://www.pcmag.com/archive/hawaii-joins-better-place-electric-car-network-234578)** > > Hawaii joined California Tuesday as the second state in the nation to link to the Better Place network of plug-in electric vehicles. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/106 "2008-12-04T13:52:40Z")
I tend to agree with Sam Stone and some others that plug in hybrids really are the way to go. Then there are a decent fraction of households where yeah, some small range like 40 mile per day give or take works for day to operations. And as noted, many folks say, but Americans are NOT going to buy a car that only has a 40 mile range. What about vacations? Holidays? Long distance weekend trips? The random but not rare long trip? True enough, but that objection is forgetting a factoid. Many households are two car households. So, it would be perfecty reasonable for many people to have a short range pure electric vehicle and a second hybrid or long range whatever that the whole family unit (or whoever needs to) for the rarer long range stuff. I’ve known plenty of working folks with 2 vehicles, one decent/nice one, and the other being an old beater, or a tiny car, or a motorcyle. Whoever needs the more useful transport that day uses it. My WAG is that given the high proportion of 2 car families, and the high portion of folks where short range is okay for workaday stuff, that something like 20 percent give or take of all cars could be short range pure electric. So, say you got a family with a long range hybrid AND a short range pure electric. The hybrid is getting a yearly average of say 200 mpg. The short range use no gas. The average MPG of both combined is going to be significantly higher still. And from that point of a view a pure electric would appear to have a pretty large market IMHO. just an observation ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/107 "2008-12-04T14:04:07Z")
The problem with short range vehicles is that you have unexpected times where you’re going to _need_ more range, but won’t be able to get to a charging station. Think about highway clusterfucks. Nashville has a population just under 500K, and at least once a month, there’s a big accident on one of the interstates which ties traffic up for an hour or more. When you add to that, the number of people who suddenly discover that they’re low on juice and need to get off and find some place to charge up, you add a whole new level of chaos to the mix. Not to mention the poor fuckers who’ll be trapped some place and _not_ be able to get off and thus wind up with a dead car in the middle of the road. A few experiences like that, and people will be ditching their short rangers pretty quickly. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/108 "2008-12-04T14:21:05Z")
Just to make it clear, no one is talking about 40 mile range. That’s the figure aimed for for all-electric from a PHEV or EREV as that would cover 80% of America’s driving. Extended range to be covered by another engine either to recharge or to power in parallel. Pure BEVs are generally designed for over 100. Some, the battery behemoths, can go farther, even up to 300 miles on a charge, but at great cost. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/109 "2008-12-04T14:32:28Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > What about vacations? Holidays? Long distance weekend trips? The random but not rare long trip? Do what everyone else in the world does and take a bus or a train? Billions of people manage to live happy, fulfilling lives without owning a personal long-range vehicle. I’m sure America can and will develop comfortable and efficient short and long range public transit systems on par with other industrialized countries when oil prices finally start rising for good. If we are smart we’ll start laying the foundations now instead of chasing rainbows. I’d like to point out that biofuels have their own environmental and human costs. They aren’t going to suddenly make moving massive amounts of steel long distances on a daily basis an efficient thing to do, either. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/110 "2008-12-04T14:37:13Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Just to make it clear, no one is talking about 40 mile range. That’s the figure aimed for for all-electric from a PHEV or EREV as that would cover 80% of America’s driving. Extended range to be covered by another engine either to recharge or to power in parallel. Pure BEVs are generally designed for over 100. Some, the battery behemoths, can go farther, even up to 300 miles on a charge, but at great cost. Yes, but the _actual_ max range on BEVs is a _lot_ shorter than the listed range. **Una** ’s posted about people she knew who had electric cars and how they quickly discovered that the range they were promised was nowhere _near_ what they were getting. IIRC, she even stated that as the cars got older, the amount of range _decreased_ over time. It only takes one or two of these screw ups to put people off BEVs. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/111 "2008-12-04T14:43:46Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I wonder if we could just increase the charge rate by a little bit, without the need for ultracapacitors, if we could have plugs next to the gas pumps at convenience stores so we can recharge a little while pumping gas. Now, it wouldn’t work very well if you’re trying to pump and go, but it might make a marginal difference if you’re going in to use the restroom, or to buy some stuff where the store’s real profit lies… > > I smell business opportunity here 🙂 Oh yeah, plugging in and unplugging high voltage lines while pumping a highly flammable liquid sounds like a great idea to me! ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/112 "2008-12-04T14:53:03Z")
Actually **Tuckerfan** “highway clusterfucks” don’t bother EV range at all. Car doesn’t need to idle. Slow forward progress is annoying but uses no more power than more rapid forward progress. Sure, you lose a little with braking but much of that is recouped with the regenerative braking. Assuming that someone buys a pure BEV as a commuter car, has a daily commute _well_ within the car’s advertised range (yes, windows open - increasing drag- or running the ac and “your mileage may vary” but still 100+ will be that for most folk), and has no plan to ever use that car as the driving vacation vehicle (either there is another family vehicle for that purpose or they rent or they fly places anyway) then the big problems remain getting the total cost of ownership to an attractive point and your very justified concerns over power outages either as a result of natural disaster or the crumbling infrastructure. Pure BEV loses some functionality compared to PHEV/EREV (unless/until a Better Place type infrastructure is widely in place). It only gains a bit less maintenance and durability. Probably would cost more. Pure BEV will very likely stay limited to very specific market segments and countries. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/113 "2008-12-04T14:54:26Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Do what everyone else in the world does and take a bus or a train? Billions of people manage to live happy, fulfilling lives without owning a personal long-range vehicle. I’m sure America can and will develop comfortable and efficient short and long range public transit systems on par with other industrialized countries when oil prices finally start rising for good. If we are smart we’ll start laying the foundations now instead of chasing rainbows. > > I’d like to point out that biofuels have their own environmental and human costs. They aren’t going to suddenly make moving massive amounts of steel long distances on a daily basis an efficient thing to do, either. The problem is getting that done intelligently. With present technology, we _can_ meet the US’s electrical needs (and then some) by covering 1000 square miles of desert with solar panels (or solar thermal power generating systems). This is _including_ periods of time when the panels would be in darkness/obscured by clouds. Haven’t seen anyone seriously proposing _that_ as part of the stimulus package. Then there’s the matter of land needed for a national rail system. Current rail lines aren’t sufficient. One solution which has been proposed (but AFAIK, never seriously considered) is to site the rail lines in the medians along the interstates. This eliminates the issues associated with having to buy land. AMTRAK also has one hugely popular route which allows people to load their cars onto the train with them. Expand that to a national system (and one that’s preferrably high speed rail), and you’d have a winner. Additionally, reworking the power grid by burying the wires (and making them superconducting by cooling them with liquid hydrogen) would solve a _number_ of issues (including the fact that 20% of all energy fed into the grid is lost). We’d have a state-of-the-art power grid, unlike any in the world, and a distribution network for hydrogen all in one. This grid would also be less likely to be damaged by things like wind, as well as making things more scenic (no ugly powerlines and poles cluttering things up) and safer (no powerlines to smack into if your car goes off the road). I’m not going to be holding my breath that any of it will be happening soon. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/114 "2008-12-04T15:19:45Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Actually **Tuckerfan** “highway clusterfucks” don’t bother EV range at all. Car doesn’t need to idle. Slow forward progress is annoying but uses no more power than more rapid forward progress. Sure, you lose a little with braking but much of that is recouped with the regenerative braking. You’re forgetting the necessary rerouting of traffic. I’ve been shunted dozens of miles out of my way (or more) and into areas with few, if any gas stations. Now, maybe with an onboard GPS that some of that could be avoided, but when you’re sitting there in the winter time, with no place to go it’ll be a worry. Even if the car’s _not_ moving, it’ll be consuming energy, especially if its one where the batteries have heating units to keep themselves warm. A gasser, you can cut off, and then fire back up if you’re worried about running low on fuel. If you’re in an electric that’s got to keep its batteries warm, turning the key off won’t do you much good, as the computer will keep the battery warmers going. > [@](#): > > Assuming that someone buys a pure BEV as a commuter car, has a daily commute _well_ within the car’s advertised range (yes, windows open - increasing drag- or running the ac and “your mileage may vary” but still 100+ will be that for most folk), and has no plan to ever use that car as the driving vacation vehicle (either there is another family vehicle for that purpose or they rent or they fly places anyway) then the big problems remain getting the total cost of ownership to an attractive point and your very justified concerns over power outages either as a result of natural disaster or the crumbling infrastructure. That 100 (or so) range will _have_ to be in a vehicle capable of doing highway speeds, though. Right now the BEVs being promoted the most are “city cars” which can’t even do 35+ MPH. I doubt if they’d be popular in a place like NYC or Boston where drivers can be obnoxious. > [@](#): > > Pure BEV loses some functionality compared to PHEV/EREV (unless/until a Better Place type infrastructure is widely in place). It only gains a bit less maintenance and durability. Probably would cost more. Pure BEV will very likely stay limited to very specific market segments and countries. Yes, you’ll have your hardcore environmentalist types who’ll drive them, but unless they can get the performance up to match that of a conventional car (speed, range, can handle the cold, etc.) or drive the costs down to a miniscule amount, you’ll never see widespread adoption of them. PHEVs just offer too many advantages over them, and while many people have multiple cars, if a new car costs $120K (which some projections have them in that price range within 20 years or so), people are probably only going to have **one** car, and they’ll pick the one that offers them the most flexibility. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/115 "2008-12-04T16:53:26Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Why is everyone avoiding the idea of plug-in hybrid? This seems to me a far better solution. I don’t think everyone’s _avoiding_ it, its just that from an engineering perspective, PHEVs and HEVs are only interim solutions. “Wait, you’re telling me I’m going to have to waste valuable space and weight- not to mention additional maintenance issues, carrying around an IC engine that I’m not even going to _use_?!” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/116 "2008-12-04T17:23:15Z")
I must say, **Tuckerfan** , that I think your experiences are hardly representational of most of us. I’ve been rerouted but hardly dozens of miles and that rarely indeed (flooding). Btw I’d worry more about summer; once the car is running at all on the problem for some batteries isn’t getting cold sitting there but keeping them cool. No the computer doesn’t heat the batteries when you turn the car off. And no I am not referring to a low speed car, aka as a neighborhood EV or NEV, that by law is restricted to a low max speed, but to real cars, albeit designed as commuters. The [Th!nk](http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2008/04/think_electric_car_headed_for_us.html) for example, or even the the [SmartEV](http://www.smartcarofamerica.com/smart_car_models/green_smart_cars/first_all_electric_smart.html). Or for those who like being “out there” and having everyone know it, the [Aptera](http://www.aptera.com/drive.php). More mundane is the forthcoming highway speed [Miles EV](http://www.milesev.com/#hsvfaq.swf). And of course the cars to be released by [Nissan](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/13/business/13auto.html). But that said I do not disagree much. Maybe in those cities if they follow London’s lead and make it financially beneficial to drive an EV. But otherwise you are right: to give up any degree of functionality (in this case use as anything other than a commuter car) you need to keep most of the other functionalities _and_ provide some overall cost savings. Until battery technology and production get there pure BEVs are unlikely to predominate. PHEVs and EREVs will be the bridge technology - or as **YamatoTwinkie** puts it - the interim solution. (Of course if someone buys one of those first and realizes after that experience that they virtually _never_ bought any gas as they never ended up driving so far, then the next car they buy might be a 100+ range pure BEV with confidence.) ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/117 "2008-12-04T18:25:03Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I must say, **Tuckerfan** , that I think your experiences are hardly representational of most of us. I’ve been rerouted but hardly dozens of miles and that rarely indeed (flooding). Btw I’d worry more about summer; once the car is running at all on the problem for some batteries isn’t getting cold sitting there but keeping them cool. No the computer doesn’t heat the batteries when you turn the car off. See, you live in an area where the concept of “snow” is understood. In the South, a few flakes cause panic, an inch or two is enough to cause people to abandon their cars in the middle of the interstate. Despite the fact that this “snow” is an annual event, many of the people here are incapable of driving in it. This scenerio is repeated all across the South, with lesser amounts of “snow” being the inspiration of mass panic. Tennessee is also a pretty popular tourist destination (as well as a highly traveled state for interstate truckers), and this causes all sorts of “fun” in the summer time. (Especially when the police are pulling over everyone with out of state tags doing 1 MPH over the speed limit for Bonnaroo. Strangely enough, however, the police aren’t nearly as interested in doing this during the country music festivals.) > [@](#): > > And no I am not referring to a low speed car, aka as a neighborhood EV or NEV, that by law is restricted to a low max speed, but to real cars, albeit designed as commuters. The [Th!nk](http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2008/04/think_electric_car_headed_for_us.html) for example, or even the the [SmartEV](http://www.smartcarofamerica.com/smart_car_models/green_smart_cars/first_all_electric_smart.html). Or for those who like being “out there” and having everyone know it, the [Aptera](http://www.aptera.com/drive.php). More mundane is the forthcoming highway speed [Miles EV](http://www.milesev.com/#hsvfaq.swf). And of course the cars to be released by [Nissan](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/13/business/13auto.html). And these have _yet_ to show up on the roads here, I note. > [@](#): > > But that said I do not disagree much. Maybe in those cities if they follow London’s lead and make it financially beneficial to drive an EV. But otherwise you are right: to give up any degree of functionality (in this case use as anything other than a commuter car) you need to keep most of the other functionalities _and_ provide some overall cost savings. Until battery technology and production get there pure BEVs are unlikely to predominate. PHEVs and EREVs will be the bridge technology - or as **YamatoTwinkie** puts it - the interim solution. (Of course if someone buys one of those first and realizes after that experience that they virtually _never_ bought any gas as they never ended up driving so far, then the next car they buy might be a 100+ range pure BEV with confidence.) We shall see. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/118 "2008-12-04T20:36:47Z")
Quoth **Tuckerfan** : > [@](#): > > Additionally, reworking the power grid by burying the wires (and making them superconducting by cooling them with liquid hydrogen) would solve a number of issues (including the fact that 20% of all energy fed into the grid is lost). I suspect this would be considerably less efficient than our current electrical grid. You’re not losing any energy resistively any more, but now you have to spend energy at the hydrogen plant cooling off the hydrogen (and cooling it enough past critical temperature to allow for heat leakage in the pipes, plus wasting all of that valuable coldness at the consumer end). And if it’s AC, you’ll also lose energy to electromagnetic radiation, even without resistivity. Plus, of course, you’d have the infrastructure costs: A whole new electrical grid would be expensive even using above-ground copper, and far more so for underground and superconducting wires. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/119 "2008-12-04T21:00:51Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **Tuckerfan** :I suspect this would be considerably less efficient than our current electrical grid. You’re not losing any energy resistively any more, but now you have to spend energy at the hydrogen plant cooling off the hydrogen (and cooling it enough past critical temperature to allow for heat leakage in the pipes, plus wasting all of that valuable coldness at the consumer end). And if it’s AC, you’ll also lose energy to electromagnetic radiation, even without resistivity. Plus, of course, you’d have the infrastructure costs: A whole new electrical grid would be expensive even using above-ground copper, and far more so for underground and superconducting wires. It was the “gold standard” grid in _Scientific American_’s special energy edition a few years back, so presumably those things wouldn’t be an issue. (I don’t have my copy handy to check the details you mention.) ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/120 "2008-12-04T21:19:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You’re not losing any energy resistively any more, but now you have to spend energy at the hydrogen plant cooling off the hydrogen… I think the net gain or loss would be determined by how much you gain from the lesser resistance vs. the greater cost of the superconductor superstructure. 20-50 years from now, who knows how those numbers will work out? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413.md?page=7)