# How near are we to solving the problem of recharging electric cars? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413 "2008-12-02T22:26:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/161 "2008-12-10T04:07:16Z")
We’ll have to disagree about whether 10,000 in 2 years is ambitious or not as an introduction. I think it likely compares favorably to Project Better Place’s roll-outs. We have no disagreement that electricity capacity and reliability across China is far from perfect. Yup, they will continue to invest in building new capacity for quite a while, while also building a car industry. As to your question - methinks you were being whooshed. I’ve not had any problem leaving my hybrid unused for a two week vacation (and I’ve owned it going on 6 years), nor have I ever heard of any one having an issue as you describe. Nor does it make any sense. Maybe some battery drain would mean that your first ride would depend more on the ICE and be less efficient, but the car would work just fine. (Of course a PHEV or EREV left plugged in would be fully charged when you got home. How fast it would drain just sitting there unplugged, I do not know.) ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/162 "2008-12-10T04:20:08Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > As to your question - methinks you were being whooshed. I’ve not had any problem leaving my hybrid unused for a two week vacation (and I’ve owned it going on 6 years), nor have I ever heard of any one having an issue as you describe. Nor does it make any sense. Maybe some battery drain would mean that your first ride would depend more on the ICE and be less efficient, but the car would work just fine. (Of course a PHEV or EREV left plugged in would be fully charged when you got home. How fast it would drain just sitting there unplugged, I do not know.) I wouldn’t say I was whooshed, since I didn’t subscribe to it as fact, merely something I’d heard (filed in the same part of the brain that I keep ravenings from folks like Rush Limbaugh in). It is _not_ totally unreasonable, however, as many electronic devices have problems if they’re allowed to sit unused for a period of time as it screws up the batteries. I do, however, have no problem taking your word on this matter. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/163 "2008-12-10T05:21:12Z")
Well my car is a “mild hybrid” - the first gen of the hybrid Honda Civic. Doing a little research there is a grain [of truth](http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-main-forum/22268-question-about-how-long-prius-can-sit-unused.html) to the account for the Prius. Toyota does recommend it for long periods of nonuse. > [@](#): > > You will have no problem with the car sitting unused for several days. If you were going to leave the car for several weeks, it would probably be a good idea to turn off the Smart Key button under the steering column (it turns off after 10 days by itself, but you might as well save the 12v battery). If you were going to be gone for more than a month, I think most people recommend that you disconnect the 12v battery, either at the attachments under the hood or on the battery itself. … > > … You’ll be fine for 2 or 3 weeks without any issues at all. If you’re going to be gone more than 2 or 3 weeks, Toyota recommends shutting-off the SE/SS system (if you have a package with that option). That will slow the drain on the 12v accessory battery. > > The high-voltage battery in the back will also slowly discharge over time. Toyota recommends that if you’re going to leave the car for a long period of time (more than a month or two), that you get someone to periodically start the car and run it for 10-15 minutes to maintain the high-voltage battery. … > > … 2006 Prius, less than 300 miles. I left it in the airport parking lot from July 13th thru Sept 4th (that’s 54 days). When I got back, the car started like as if I drove it every day. Main battery showed 3 bars left upon startup. I didn’t turn off the Smart Key either. FYI. … > > … a dead battery in this sense refers to the 12V battery, not the HV battery… that one should still be at or very near where you left it, since it is disconnected from the system when turned off. … > > … I’ve left mine parked for three weeks, on two separate occasions, didn’t disable the SKS, and had no problems. … FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/164 "2008-12-14T15:55:18Z")
So what are the odds that Chinese EVs, such as [this one](http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-chinacar13-2008dec13,0,1669363.story) being released by BYD, will have any success? > [@](#): > > On Monday, the upstart company best known for making cellphone batteries will begin selling its F3DM – China’s first mass-produced hybrid electric vehicle. The car is expected to retail for around $20,000 in China and make its way to U.S. shores in 2011. … Among those betting on BYD is Warren E. Buffett, who in September bought a 9.9% stake for $230 million. The billioniare investor apparently was impressed with BYD’s green technology and Wang’s record as a manager. > > Wang said Buffett’s investment would be of particular help as BYD prepares to enter the U.S. market in 2011 with its electric vehicles. GM plans to introduce its electric car, the Chevrolet Volt, in 2010. … > > … The DM in the name stands for dual-mode, reflecting its ability to operate in both full-electric and gas-electric hybrid modes. The electric mode has a range of 60 miles on a single charge. … > > … “Most Chinese customers would feel that its initial investment is too high and that they won’t start to see a return until after five to six years of use,” said Che Junhong, editor of China Auto Market Report in Beijing. > > BYD could, however, get a boost from the Chinese government, which is keen on developing cleaner energy as well as supporting domestic companies that could become powerful players in the world and lead the way in improving China’s economy. Wang says he expects to sell 10,000 electric cars next year. The first batch will go to government entities, says Paul Lin, a marketing department manager at BYD’s auto subsidiary. … ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/165 "2008-12-14T16:27:06Z")
Hybrids as they are now would suffice for 75 % of the commutes. Many people need trucks or vans for work. Making them green will come later. People with long commutes will not be able to use the first generation of electric vehicles. In time the electric car with evolve into something for everybody but that will come later. We need to start as soon as possible. It is much about pollution after all. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/166 "2008-12-15T22:41:03Z")
[Th!nk in trouble.](http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/12/15/th-nk-looking-for-helping-hand-temporarily-halts-prod/) > [@](#): > > It was virtually impossible for emerging automakers to forecast how difficult times would get just a few short months ago. Considering that even the best laid business plans must rely in some part on a series of educated guesses and assumptions, it’s not surprising that Th!nk Global now finds itself in “urgent financial distress.” So dire is Th!nk’s future that Chief Executive Richard Canny has not ruled out bankruptcy, suggesting that the Norwegian automaker is in desperate need of help from the government. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/167 "2008-12-16T01:04:31Z")
Yup, tough times to be in the car business. It would be foolish to think that a company whose future is completely tied to the adoption of an emerging technology and that as of yet is not cost competiive would not be at grave risk during a global economic downturn and with credit and venture capital nearly nonexistent. I hope they make it but their best bet might be if a big producer buys them up as a means of having an entry in the BEV market. Maybe Ford will buy them back! Meanwhile there is [this from Mercedes Benz.](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/12/mercedes-benz-t.html#more) > [@](#): > > Mercedes-Benz will present its near-series electric-drive Concept BlueZERO at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit in January. > > Based on a single vehicle architecture, this modular concept allows three models with different drive configurations: the BlueZERO E-CELL with battery-electric drive and a range of up to 200 km (124 miles); the BlueZERO F-CELL (fuel cell) with a range of more than 400 km (249 miles); and the BlueZERO E-CELL PLUS with electric drive and internal combustion engine as range extender. The BlueZERO E-CELL PLUS has an overall range of up to 600 km (373 miles) and can cover a distance of up to 100 km (62 miles) using electric drive alone. … > > … With a charging capacity of 15 kW, the lithium-ion batteries in the BlueZERO E-CELL and the BlueZERO E-CELL PLUS can store enough energy for a range of 50 km (31 miles) within 30 minutes. In terms of purely electrical drive, one or two hours of charging time is needed for a range of 100 and 200 kilometers respectively. The charging times are doubled if the charging capacity is 7 kW, as would be the case in a normal household. Both of these BlueZERO vehicles incorporate an electronic control unit that supports intelligent charging stations and billing systems. > > At the rear, the BlueZERO E-CELL PLUS has the same 1.0-liter turbocharged gasoline engine as the smart fortwo as an additional range extender. This compact three-cylinder powerplant has an output of 50 kW at a constant 3,500 rpm. If required, it can recharge the 17.5 kWh lithium-ion battery pack by means of a similarly rated alternator. As an aside, the form featured in the post seems derived from [this Mercedes concept car,](http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/03/08/cars.fish.popsci/index.html) which was based off of the body form of a boxfish. I loved that design! > [@](#): > > With a Cd of just 0.19, the four-seat Bionic is significantly more slippery than today’s most aerodynamic production vehicle, Honda’s two-seat Insight (Cd 0.25). > > The design team eschewed expensive, complicated and heavy fuel-cell or hybrid powertrains, opting instead for a 1.9-liter four-cylinder direct-injection turbodiesel that pushes the fishmobile to 62 mph in 8.2 seconds with a combined city/highway fuel economy of 70 mpg. > > At a constant 56 mph, the concept car will return an amazing 84 mpg. > > Although the Bionic isn’t coming to your local dealership, Mercedes does expect it to significantly influence the design language of its next generation of small cars. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/168 "2008-12-27T22:42:46Z")
Bumping this as [this article](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/12/london-bus-desi.html#more) illustrates what I was envisioning as a spot for pure BEVs - high mileage fleet vehicles - in this case city buses designed to run on 24/7. > [@](#): > > ``` > The new Altairnano batteries offer 3x the power density and delivery of standard Li-ion batteries used in the Whisper bus. This means that we would need only 120 kg of Altairnano batteries to provide the power for 1 hour of emission free motoring-fully laden (no generator running) and only 480 kg to run for 4 hours (1/2 a shift). That’s around 380 litres of battery volume, or about 10% of the available space in the main deck under-floor area. > > More significantly, that’s much less weight than the generator set and fuel tank. So it makes sense to get rid of the generator set, and have a full 4 hour or even 8 hour battery range, and be permanently emission free at the point of use. Remember these batteries can be 80% recharged in 1 minute. 100% recharged in a few more. > > ``` Expensive yes. But with the miles that those buses would run they’d be cost effective in a reasonable time frame at even moderately high gas prices. Not even counting a cost for carbon. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413/169 "2008-12-27T23:09:45Z")
The energy figures I’ve seen for an electric car to have a recharge rate of about a minute require you to be able to pump 5.2 megawatts of power through a wire. If you had a 500 Volt supply, it would require 10,000 Amps. That’s a pretty big fat wiring harness. According to [these guys](http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm), you can shove about 400 Amps through a single wire that is almost half an inch in diameter. So, you’d need 25 of these wires to run that much current, and if these wires are in a bundle, you’d need them to be cooled somehow to prevent overload. That’s a bundle of wires about 4 inches thick with some kind of water cooling system. I don’t know what an electric bus would use in terms of energy, but I’d be willing to bet that it’d be a whole lot more. The alternative to having a single “power port” to recharge the bus would be multiple recharging points, but that adds to your expense: More wires, more access points, more voltage controls systems, more weight, more things to break, wear out, or kids to stick their fingers into when someone’s forgotten to secure the cover like they’re supposed to. Any guesses as to what happens when a kid manages to ground himself and send 400 Amps through their body? Think its nearly as dangerous as sticking your finger in a gas tank and licking the gas or diesel off it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-near-are-we-to-solving-the-problem-of-recharging-electric-cars/475413.md?page=8)