# How not to introduce cannabis to a newly open legal market **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 21, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-not-to-introduce-cannabis-to-a-newly-open-legal-market/846762 "2020-01-21T18:06:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2020, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-not-to-introduce-cannabis-to-a-newly-open-legal-market/846762/21 "2020-01-23T19:53:08Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > Neighboring Idaho is missing out on a lot of potential tax income. I guarantee the border pot shops are filled with vehicles with ID plates. Same goes for the OR pot shops on the ID border: [https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/20/us/marijuana-sales-idaho-oregon-420-trnd/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/20/us/marijuana-sales-idaho-oregon-420-trnd/index.html) [Here’s](https://oregoneconomicanalysis.com/2020/01/17/fun-friday-more-marijuana-border-effects/) an report by the Oregon Office of Economic Analysis on the border effects of marijuana sales. Note: the Ontario in that report is a town on the Idaho border, not the province. The report covers both Oregon and Washington border effects. > [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > The whole point to legalization is to take the product out of the black market and move those sales into the real world market. And in doing so, pick up the customers who have avoided the black market, and of course to reap the benefits of taxing these sales. > > The price must undercut the previously black market. The availability must be easy and cheap. To charge too much and limit product just encourages the gray middle area between the black market and the legal market. Exactly. And even between ‘legal’ states that’s an issue. Oregon has lower sales tax on mj, so they steal customers from Washington border regions. There’s also the erroneous meme about legalizing it and then taxing the hell out of it. Nope, the high taxes don’t work all that well. Colorado (and Washington?) still has a sizable black/grey market because the taxes are so high. > [@](#): > > The market or the tax money people will figure it out in Ontario, eventually. This is typical. Many of the people who are required to make it legal oppose it, so they do their best to make it difficult to actually get it. Dragging their feet on approvals, liimiting product and number of stores, excessively high prices, etc. Yes, eventually the people only interested in making money will prevail. > [@](#): > > Counties in the more conservative areas of Oregon initially decided that they would have no pot outlets in the county. “We’ll show them!” That lasted about a year until they saw neighboring counties bringing in millions in revenue. “We’ll show them”, quickly became “We are stupid” and most areas will now allow outlets, and the revenue that come with them. That was partly because they’re conservative and partly because they didn’t want to make it easier for their high school kids to get access. But those people were forgetting their own high school years. It’s never been very hard for students to get weed if they wanted it and legalizing it would not make it appreciably easier. It would only make it easier for the people supplying it, but in even before legalization, getting a supply in Oregon was not that difficult. Southern Oregon (and adjacent parts of California) is the weed growing capital of the US. They still grow it there illegally, but mainly for the export market. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-not-to-introduce-cannabis-to-a-newly-open-legal-market/846762/22 "2020-01-24T00:58:32Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I don’t know why a state would want to legalize something but at the same time make it so damned inconvenient for people to get it. States have been doing this with alcohol for years. I can go to Wal-Mart or Target and buy pretty much any consumer product in the world. I can even buy alcohol there so long as it is beer or wine. > > But if I want liquor for some reason the state makes me go to a separate store all the way across town. And I had better hope that it is within certain hours or not before 1pm on Sunday. And the state is the only wholesaler of liquor so I get the same shitty selection everywhere I go. It makes no sense. > > Don’t even get me started on Pennsylvania. We were in Pittsburgh and wanted a 12 pack of beer to take back to our room. No bar would sell it to us at anything other than full bar prices which we refused to pay. It would have been easier to get cocaine than beer. > > It seems like they are doing the same thing with weed. If you want to make it legal then make it legal. Don’t just allow it in two whole stores where there is a two hour wait. This is a very good point. I think a lot of the anachronistic restrictions on alcohol sales are the legacy of f[undamentalists and evangelists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition#Temperance_movement), their influence peaking in the US in the in the early 20th century\*. \*and growing to a new high today ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-not-to-introduce-cannabis-to-a-newly-open-legal-market/846762/23 "2020-01-24T01:17:34Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Actually, I would think that is surprising. I mean, that’s a small amount of pot shops for that population, right? One would think all of them are selling at capacity then, no? So, yes, that does surprise me quite a bit. Yes, the pot shops are making money, but they are unconnected to the producers. Because there are so few stores, the legal system has not made a lethal dent in the illegal trade and it’s a serious bottleneck for producers to get product out. This was a stupid decision by our Ontario politicians. Before the last election the Libs were going to make it a government run system. They lost and the PCs decided to go free market but did it shitty by having a severely limited lottery for licenses. The Libs mighta fucked up their government system given the chance but the PCs definitely fucked up their rollout. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-not-to-introduce-cannabis-to-a-newly-open-legal-market/846762/24 "2020-01-24T02:21:41Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > This is a very good point. I think a lot of the anachronistic restrictions on alcohol sales are the legacy of f[undamentalists and evangelists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition#Temperance_movement), their influence peaking in the US in the in the early 20th century\*. Right. Specifically, when Prohibition was repealed, those against drinking did their best to make the alcohol market as inefficient as possible. If they couldn’t get a state to keep a state-wide prohibition, they got as many counties as they could to do it. Or got sales prohibited on Sunday and various other restrictions. Here in Oregon they got a special requirement about deliveries of alcohol. The truckers who deliver to businesses who sell alcohol for immediate consumption (i.e. bars and restaurants) have to collect what they’re owed in cash on the spot. No checks, no buying on credit. It’s hard to believe, but that’s still on the books. I’m surprised there aren’t more hijacks of beer trucks, since they frequently are carrying large amounts of cash. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-not-to-introduce-cannabis-to-a-newly-open-legal-market/846762/25 "2020-01-24T07:57:14Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > The market or the tax money people will figure it out in Ontario, eventually. Maybe, although note that the cost of (heavily regulated and heavily taxed) beer and spirits in Ontario is eye-wateringly high compared to some U.S. jurisdictions. So the likelihood that cannabis will be an exception to the rule is slim to none. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-not-to-introduce-cannabis-to-a-newly-open-legal-market/846762/26 "2020-01-24T12:35:13Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > Maybe, although note that the cost of (heavily regulated and heavily taxed) beer and spirits in Ontario is eye-wateringly high compared to some U.S. jurisdictions. So the likelihood that cannabis will be an exception to the rule is slim to none. When I lived in Ontario, I would purchase my Canadian beer in Michigan during trips there, because it was about $20 a case (including deposit on 24 cans) versus $40 per two-four at The Beer Store. I never did buy much liquor or wine in Ontario, because it was always a PITA to go to the LCBO, which was a separate stop. In my part of Mississauga, The Beer Store was a freestanding building with its own parking lot, but the LCBO was in a mini mall with almost no parking, further down the road, and I hate mini malls, especially with limited parking. As for marijuana, I know that some of the local Ontario subreddits sometimes popularize the question whether its better to come to Michigan or not for a personal supply. My understanding is no, it’s not better, as we have supply constraints, too. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-not-to-introduce-cannabis-to-a-newly-open-legal-market/846762/27 "2020-01-24T13:44:43Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > As for marijuana, I know that some of the local Ontario subreddits sometimes popularize the question whether its better to come to Michigan or not for a personal supply. My understanding is no, it’s not better, as we have supply constraints, too. That and crossing a border, even if cannabis is legal on both sides, is a stupid idea. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-not-to-introduce-cannabis-to-a-newly-open-legal-market/846762/28 "2020-01-24T14:22:22Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Ontario? I thought you were talking about Illinois. There are two whole pot shops south of Chicago. I live right by one of them. There was a day long line to wait in in early January. Now you can get through the line in two hours if you’re lucky. But the product is substandard, they’re always running out, prices are insane and on top of that Illinois wants another 25-30% for the privilege. Everything I read in the run-up to Jan 1st said that retail outlets probably wouldn’t really grow until the first 6-12 months after legalization. The growers need that time to ramp up production and their current stuff is locked in by the medical marijuana dispensaries (which are the few places selling retail now with 2hr lines). The medical places have opened some new retail outlets but essentially we’re in a bottleneck until the summer at the earliest. I haven’t touched the stuff since the mid-90s so I can’t offer anything about pricing/quality although I’d assume pricing could go down as production goes up. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-not-to-introduce-cannabis-to-a-newly-open-legal-market/846762/29 "2020-01-25T04:02:27Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > That and crossing a border, even if cannabis is legal on both sides, is a stupid idea. I agree, but I assumed that such questions meant consuming on this side of the border. On the other hand, if mj affects judgment, maybe my assumptions are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-not-to-introduce-cannabis-to-a-newly-open-legal-market/846762/30 "2020-01-25T10:28:59Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > The whole point to legalization is to take the product out of the black market and move those sales into the real world market. And in doing so, pick up the customers who have avoided the black market, and of course to reap the benefits of taxing these sales. > > The price must undercut the previously black market. The availability must be easy and cheap. To charge too much and limit product just encourages the gray middle area between the black market and the legal market. I don’t think that’s the _whole_ point of legalization. Regulation and moderation are also reasons for legalization. BUT… even if it was the whole reason, it’s not true that “The price must undercut the previously black market.” Price is not the only variable in markets. Look at your supermarket: those products aren’t all competing on price alone. For another example, in my country, paid streaming services are cutting into the (free) black-market music/video download volume, and the numbers are quite big. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-not-to-introduce-cannabis-to-a-newly-open-legal-market/846762/31 "2020-01-25T15:14:41Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > “The price must undercut the previously black market.” I can get all sorts of stuff for cheaper on the black market, but the reason I don’t do so is the legality of it. I’d rather pay more and be above board than pay cheaper for goods illegally sold of unknown provenance. I don’t plan on buying any pot any time soon, but I am much more likely to as a legal activity than trying to track it down through my friends. Last time I purchased pot was … 1998, and I have no interest in participating in illegal activity. While the risk is very low that anything will happen to me, it’s not a risk I want to take. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-not-to-introduce-cannabis-to-a-newly-open-legal-market/846762/32 "2020-01-25T19:46:17Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I don’t know why a state would want to legalize something but at the same time make it so damned inconvenient for people to get it. States have been doing this with alcohol for years. I can go to Wal-Mart or Target and buy pretty much any consumer product in the world. I can even buy alcohol there so long as it is beer or wine. > > But if I want liquor for some reason the state makes me go to a separate store all the way across town. And I had better hope that it is within certain hours or not before 1pm on Sunday. And the state is the only wholesaler of liquor so I get the same shitty selection everywhere I go. It makes no sense. Fair enough, but I would point that the fact that the liquor stores being government-run does not by itself account for those problems, and it’s the same with cannabis sales. Some state and provincial governments are more competent than others, while others still learn over time. Government-owned liquor stores in Ontario are a good example of that. Years ago they were drab, disreputable looking places that weren’t even allowed to display the products on shelves. You wrote down what you wanted on a piece of paper, handed it to a slimy-looking clerk, paid for it in cash, and it was brought out for you in a plain paper bag. Today the Liquor Control Board of Ontario, still government owned, is the largest single buyer of wine and liquor in the world. The stores are large, bright, and cheery, have many locations (there are no fewer than five within an easy drive of my place), have large and varied selections, often have sales and specials, and all now have upscale “vintages” sections featuring fine and limited-availability wines. So don’t blame government – blame _ **incompetent** _ government. Commercial monopolies like cable companies are at least as bad if not worse. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-not-to-introduce-cannabis-to-a-newly-open-legal-market/846762/33 "2020-01-25T20:43:28Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I don’t know why a state would want to legalize something but at the same time make it so damned inconvenient for people to get it. > … > If you want to make it legal then make it legal. Don’t just allow it in two whole stores where there is a two hour wait. In Canada, it’s two different governments involved. It was the Feds that made it legal, and now the provinces who are regulating the retail sales. The fact that the Feds (Liberal government) were keen on legalizing does not automatically mean that Ontario (Conservative government) is keen on increasing access. It will all shake out eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-not-to-introduce-cannabis-to-a-newly-open-legal-market/846762/34 "2020-01-25T21:17:56Z")
It’s worth noting that the previous provincial government (Liberals) had a plan in place, and was getting ready to roll things out when they were voted out…plans which Ford immediately cut off, to replace them with his own rollout, which took longer. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-not-to-introduce-cannabis-to-a-newly-open-legal-market/846762/35 "2020-01-25T23:05:09Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > It’s worth noting that the previous provincial government (Liberals) had a plan in place, and was getting ready to roll things out when they were voted out…plans which Ford immediately cut off, to replace them with his own rollout, which took longer. Yes, that’s why I noted it in post 23. 😛 But don’t make the mistake of thinking that the Liberal plan would have been rolled out correctly. Quebec went that way, not a single damn store in Gatineau. Alberta went the cowboy capitalist routeand they had the biggest legal uptake of consumption. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-not-to-introduce-cannabis-to-a-newly-open-legal-market/846762/36 "2020-01-26T02:26:40Z")
Sorry, I missed your post. (And again when I scrolled up to try to read it. Jesus, I’m unobservant, today. :smack:) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-not-to-introduce-cannabis-to-a-newly-open-legal-market/846762.md?page=1)