# How offensive is "Merry Christmas" to a Jew? (Bill O'Riley situation) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2005, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008 "2005-12-04T06:41:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/121 "2005-12-06T21:56:52Z")
> [@justwannano](#): > > Yes Kyla I read your post. > All I saw there is another person feeling sorry for themselves. > Another "Oh woe is me. I’m so picked on. " > Darlin EVERYBODY knows you don’t celebrate Christmas. > Yall make that perfectly clear. > I’m the one that should be saying “All I’m asking for is a little acknowledgement.” > Someone cares enough for you to wish you a Merry Christmas and you’re saying “Fuck you I don’t celebrate Christmas”. > > Take a look on the inside darlin. No, she’s saying nothing of the kind. Nobody in this thread is doing anything remotely similar to what you’re saying. You really don’t understand what’s being discussed in this thread, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/122 "2005-12-06T23:11:17Z")
I give up, **justwannanp**. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall, but more depressing. At least with a brick wall, I wouldn’t really expect coherence. P.S. The condescending "darlin"s and "hon"s _are_ rude. As opposed to a friendly “Merry Christmas” from a stranger, which is not. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/123 "2005-12-06T23:48:40Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > I gotta ask, since I have never heard of anyone outside disaffected teenagers claim to worship Cybele. I apologize to everyone for the hijack. I never heard of disaffected teenagers showing any interest in Cybele. The people I know are all adults with a serious, scholarly interest in ancient religion. And sex. 😉 > [@](#): > > Do you perform the taurobolium? No. I have never heard of it being revived in modern times, and personally I would not go for such a thing. > [@](#): > > The Day of Blood? Yes. The modern Gallae observe the Season of the Tree every March. Many of them schedule their surgery to occur on the Day of Blood for its religious significance. > [@](#): > > How do you distinguish the Cybele worshipped “outside” Rome and the Cybele who sports a big temple on the Palatine? She’s one and the same goddess, worshiped by two communities. The Palatine Temple was in service to the Roman state. The Phrygianum on the Vatican Hill (which was a wild area outside the city in ancient times) was the main residence of the Gallae. The Romans sometimes put male state officials in charge of the Palatine temple administration, but the Phrygianum was a place for the Gallae to govern their own affairs. Cybele was adopted by the Roman state as a defensive goddess. Her role was not aggressive or imperialistic. Rome was under attack from Carthage and the city itself was threatened. The Sibyl of Cumae said Cybele would protect Rome. Her cultic stone was brought from Phrygia to Rome in 204 BC and credited with the successful defense against Carthage. It helped that the Romans believed they originated in Asia Minor, so they felt an ethnic or cultural connection to the most ancient goddess of Anatolia, the Great Mother of the Gods. ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/124 "2005-12-07T00:19:30Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > The modern Gallae observe the Season of the Tree every March. > [@](#): > > Dies Sanguinis (24 March) > This was the “day of blood”. The high priest and the gallae did a wild dance around the sacred pine tree. He flagellated himself and them with a whip hung with knucklebones. Clarinets and cymbals were played, and timbrels beaten furiously. People would also beat their breasts with pine cones and cut their arms and shoulders with knives. The blood from this was spilled on the pine tree or altars, with screams and yells that were echoed by the crowd. Some spectators entered the frenzied dances themselves and even participated in the next step. This was ritual castration of initiates, performed with broken pottery, sharp flint, and glass (in later times only the testicles were removed) (1). The pine was then buried. The high priest said prayers for the protection of the emperor and Empire. [@](http://hunter.apana.org.au/~gallae/QueerStuff/religion/gallae/cultrituals.htm) **That** I’ve got to see. ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/125 "2005-12-07T01:43:14Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > I give up, **justwannanp**. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall, but more depressing. At least with a brick wall, I wouldn’t really expect coherence. > > P.S. The condescending "darlin"s and "hon"s _are_ rude. As opposed to a friendly “Merry Christmas” from a stranger, which is not. This whole damned thread is depressing. I asked how Merry Christmas could be offensive and all I got was " Well back 2000 years ago … Or "At Vatican II… Or "Some shit about torture… Its a joyous time of year. People wish each other peace on earth and good will to men by saying Merry Christmas… How can saying peace on earth and good will to men be offensive? People give each other gifts.Yeah sometimes you don’t need it but its the thought. You can feel the anticipation of the children. Last saturday night I myself stood outside in the snow in a stupid hat with elf ears at 20 degrees and handed out 600 candy canes. My fingers would hardly work they were so cold but the reaction of the folks was amazing.Even the old folks giggled when I insisted they take one. The original holiday was designed as a religious one but unlike Hannaka it has evolved into something else. It is the one time of year many go to church but most don’t. It can be celebrated unreligiously. So one more time How can saying Merry Christmas be offensive? Even if Bill O’Reiley says it. BTW he didn’t say it to you. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/126 "2005-12-07T01:58:49Z")
Because you can’t take Christ out of Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/127 "2005-12-07T02:08:15Z")
**justwannano** , Let me give this a try. If you were wished a “Good Fast for Ramadam” by someone who you knew knew you were Christian, how would you feel? Probably just that the person was bit odd or clueless but no harm intended. What if you lived in a predominately Moslem country as well and you knew that that person felt that all members of the country should be Moslem? Would think that he intended “Peace on Earth”? Or perhaps, just perhaps, that he was trying to tell you that your kind aint welcome in these parts. Now, I’ve never been insulted by “Merry Christmas”, but such certainly can be the intent by some. By others it is either just ignorance that wishing someone who isn’t Christian “Merrry Christmas” is silly, or a belief that Christmas is secular and not religious. As I said before, I’d find the latter offensive if I was Christian, but I’m not, so I don’t. I don’t know where you get your demographic information about Dopers, but I do believe that there are quite a few of us relative old farts (40 plus) around. In any case if your willful ignorance of history was indicative of your generation then we’d be in deep deep shit. You are not familiar with “Christ-killer”. I’m glad. But to be unconcerned with the fact that tens of thousand Jews died with that as the last thing they heard, to take the position that years and years of persecution and history do not inform current situations in the least, is ill-suited for this forum. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/128 "2005-12-07T02:08:34Z")
> [@justwannano](#): > > This whole damned thread is depressing. > > I asked how Merry Christmas could be offensive and all I got was > " Well back 2000 years ago … > Or "At Vatican II… > Or "Some shit about torture… This is a lie. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/129 "2005-12-07T02:14:29Z")
justwannano? You’ve certainly said something, haven’t you? Bless your heart. (If you are of a culture where darlin’ and hon are appropriate, what I have just said to you is the rough equivalent, culturally speaking, of what Bill said to Stewart. Though I might want to add something like ‘He’s mighty polite for a northerner, isn’t he?’ for the extra bile and venom. Two thousand years of oppression, bundled up in two little words. Ain’t it sweet?) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/130 "2005-12-07T03:27:27Z")
> [@](#): > > How can saying Merry Christmas be offensive? Even if Bill O’Reiley says it. BTW he didn’t say it to you. I almost hope you’re being disingenuous, here. First, let us note (as has been pointed out to you several times, already, but just to be sure you see it once in this thread): the overwhelming majority of people (even the non-Christian and atheistic people participating in this thread) realize that it is simply an expression of good will **and are not insulted**. The only instances where insult has been taken has been where insult has been intended. Second, let us review reecent history: Falwell and his gang have announced a campaign to boycott stores where people are wished “Happy Holiday” and file lawsuits against people who make changes to school programs where the word “Christmas” may be removed. Further, Bill O’Reilly, (who has no visible faith except as it is defined as opposition to “secular”) went on a series of rants on his show, embracing the Falwell gang’s lunacy and claiming that since this is a “Christian” nation, everyone should celebrate Christmas. He ended one show by specifically singling out Jon Stewart (who has been the target of numeraous attacks by O’Reilly for his “secular” opinions) and signed off with “Merry Christmas Jon Stewart.” Now, I suspect that Jon Stewart has no animus against the phrase “Merry Christmas” (and may express it himself, from time to time). But if you cannot see that a show devoted to claiming that all people of all religions (and no religion) must celebrate Christmas because this is a “Christian” country and the person making that delivery singles out someone whom he has bashed as not “Christian” enough to wish him “Merry Christmas” by name, is intended as an insult, then I am not sure that you are quite capable of grasping the issue. (I strongly suspect that Stewart did not take offense, simply dismissing it as one more classless act by big Bill, but it was clearly intended as an insult.) ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/131 "2005-12-07T04:35:08Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > But if you cannot see that a show devoted to claiming that all people of all religions (and no religion) must celebrate Christmas because this is a “Christian” country and the person making that delivery singles out someone whom he has bashed as not “Christian” enough to wish him “Merry Christmas” by name, is intended as an insult, then I am not sure that you are quite capable of grasping the issue. (I strongly suspect that Stewart did not take offense, simply dismissing it as one more classless act by big Bill, but it was clearly intended as an insult.) Well, obviously, since Jon Stewart is Jewish. I’ll try to assume that Bill O’Reilly is just an asshole and not specifically an anti-Semitic asshole. But yeah, I can see that he intended insult there. But then, I’m sure Jesus was all about using His title as an insult. Merry Christmas indeed. ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/132 "2005-12-07T04:48:13Z")
OK, here’s another example of “Merry Christmas” being offensive. I went to a public high school that had a magnet program in languages. Being located in a fairly Jewish neighborhood, one of the languages offered was Hebrew. There was a Hebrew club (not required to be in it to take the language, it was basically a Hillel for our school to serve as a counterpart to the Christian Students Association). Hebrew club sent out Happy Chanuka cards to all of the teachers with a bag of chocolate gelt. One of them came back to the advisor’s mailbox with a long bible passage about Jesus (John 3 I think) and the last line of MERRY CHRISTMAS!!! underlined three or four times. Yeah, I’m all for tolerance. Yeah, I recognize that Chanuka ain’t nothing compared to Christmas. Yeah, I recognize most of this country is Christian. But there is a difference to making your viewpoint known and beating other people over the head with your viewpoint. The latter is intolerant and distasteful. I see it as not entirely different from the old Southerners who claimed they aren’t racist on one hand but then complain about uppity Negros on the other… **justwannano** , if you can’t see how Jews find this somewhere between offensive and threatening, and can’t sympathesize with how Jews are exquisitely sensitive about intolerance and potential threats in society, then you are either being intentionally obtuse or you are completely out of touch. ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/133 "2005-12-07T05:51:08Z")
> [@edwino](#): > > **justwannano** , if you can’t see how Jews find this somewhere between offensive and threatening, and can’t sympathesize with how Jews are exquisitely sensitive about intolerance and potential threats in society, then you are either being intentionally obtuse or you are completely out of touch. Well you are right. I cannot see how Jews find this anything except a nucience. And I sure do see that at least the Jews that have posted here are exquisitely sensitive. As far as a potential threat. WTF ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/134 "2005-12-07T06:13:34Z")
> [@justwannano](#): > > Well you are right. > I cannot see how Jews find this anything except a nucience. An ignorance of history will do that do ya. > [@justwannano](#): > > And I sure do see that at least the Jews that have posted here are exquisitely sensitive. An awareness of history will do that do ya. > [@justwannano](#): > > As far as a potential threat. WTF My father was once told by some folks on the NY city subway that he ‘looked Jewish’ and that they wanted to ‘feel his horns’, since, as everybody knows, Jews have horns. When he refused, they beat the hell out of him. This was, IIRC, in the early 70’s. If you are ignorant of the historical nature of anti-semitism I suppose you couldn’t understand how someone pretty much saying “This here is a Christian Nation, so Merry Chistmas, Jewboy!” might make a Jewish person a bit wary… I’m still intersted in getting an answer to my question that I asked a bunch of posts up. Just where do you think that Jewish people got that idea that they were being called “Christ-killers” and beaten/killed due to just such rhetoric? Do you think that they made it up? Despite all the cites I gave you, showing at it was a factor as recently as the 20th century? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/135 "2005-12-07T07:55:14Z")
> [@justwannano](#): > > This whole damned thread is depressing. > > I asked how Merry Christmas could be offensive and all I got was > " Well back 2000 years ago … > Or "At Vatican II… > Or "Some shit about torture… > > Its a joyous time of year. People wish each other peace on earth and good will to men by saying Merry Christmas… How can saying peace on earth and good will to men be offensive? > People give each other gifts.Yeah sometimes you don’t need it but its the thought. > You can feel the anticipation of the children. > Last saturday night I myself stood outside in the snow in a stupid hat with elf ears at 20 degrees and handed out 600 candy canes. My fingers would hardly work they were so cold but the reaction of the folks was amazing.Even the old folks giggled when I insisted they take one. > > The original holiday was designed as a religious one but unlike Hannaka it has evolved into something else. It is the one time of year many go to church but most don’t. It can be celebrated unreligiously. > > So one more time > How can saying Merry Christmas be offensive? Even if Bill O’Reiley says it. BTW he didn’t say it to you. I’m not sure if my vote (as a confirmed Yahweh dispiser) counts, but I still say that snow+carols+shiksas is a sure fire crowd-pleaser. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/136 "2005-12-07T08:23:54Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I apologize to everyone for the hijack. I never heard of disaffected teenagers showing any interest in Cybele. The people I know are all adults with a serious, scholarly interest in ancient religion. And sex. 😉 No. I have never heard of it being revived in modern times, and personally I would not go for such a thing. Yes. The modern Gallae observe the Season of the Tree every March. Many of them schedule their surgery to occur on the Day of Blood for its religious significance.She’s one and the same goddess, worshiped by two communities. The Palatine Temple was in service to the Roman state. The Phrygianum on the Vatican Hill (which was a wild area outside the city in ancient times) was the main residence of the Gallae. The Romans sometimes put male state officials in charge of the Palatine temple administration, but the Phrygianum was a place for the Gallae to govern their own affairs. Cybele was adopted by the Roman state as a defensive goddess. Her role was not aggressive or imperialistic. Rome was under attack from Carthage and the city itself was threatened. The Sibyl of Cumae said Cybele would protect Rome. Her cultic stone was brought from Phrygia to Rome in 204 BC and credited with the successful defense against Carthage. It helped that the Romans believed they originated in Asia Minor, so they felt an ethnic or cultural connection to the most ancient goddess of Anatolia, the Great Mother of the Gods. are you yezidi? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/137 "2005-12-07T11:18:47Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > are you yezidi? No, **alaric**. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/138 "2005-12-07T11:27:45Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > > [@Johanna](#): > > > > Uh, excuse me? I’m a Pagan Roman, you know. I am a priestess of the goddess Cybele. I never murdered anyone, and in fact I practice ahimsa (nonviolence). I don’t do that empire thing. My people, the priestesses of Cybele, lived outside Roman civilization in the wild hills where we drummed and danced ecstatically. > > > > So watch it with the stereotyping, OK? > > I thought Cybele was worshipped by priests who cut off their wangs? Patience, my friend. Patience. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/139 "2005-12-07T12:08:20Z")
Yeah, I’m transsexual, and some individuals may find a juvenile sort of pleasure in needling me about it, but this hijack doesn’t belong in this thread. Start another thread if you want to poke fun at my religion. This one is supposed to be about Christians and Jews. Sorry about the Temple, the Cybelines had their temples destroyed too and their priestesses killed in the early 5th century when the Christians outlawed paganism. The persecution done to my religion wiped it out; fortunately for Judaism it was able to survive in a modified form. I don’t agree with Rome’s imperialistic attack on Judaism any more than I agree with the current U.S. administration’s imperial adventures in the Middle East. It would be like sometime in the future I meet an Iraqi who finds out I’m American and says, “You owe me one.” I was protesting against the war and writing letters to congressmen even before it began. I reject the imperialism of both Rome and America on principle. The religion of Cybele was never about imperialism. Back to the OP, so this isn’t just a hijack: I can’t see any religious purpose in using a deliberately misdirected religious greeting to score points in a political pressure campaign. It’s contradictory to the professed Christian principle of charity and is a sick mockery of the religion it claims to support. Especially when aimed at Jews, given the history of persecution in the name of Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008/140 "2005-12-07T15:10:46Z")
> [@justwannano](#): > > Well you are right. > I cannot see how Jews find this anything except a nucience. > And I sure do see that at least the Jews that have posted here are exquisitely sensitive. > > As far as a potential threat. WTF As others have said, the fact that you cannot see why people (not just Jews BTW) find this offensive says a lot more about you than those of us who are offended. Perhaps you can simply accept the fact that people are offended and you should act accordingly? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-offensive-is-merry-christmas-to-a-jew-bill-oriley-situation/334008.md?page=8)