# How often are fully automatic weapons used in crimes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 11, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-fully-automatic-weapons-used-in-crimes/665963 "2013-08-11T21:23:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Keyzer\_Soza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a587f6/32.png) [@Keyzer\_Soza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keyzer_Soza)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-fully-automatic-weapons-used-in-crimes/665963/1 "2013-08-11T21:23:29Z")
In every hollywood action movie it seems the bad guys in any urban area seem to have access to unlimited fully automatic Ak-47’s and the likes. However from what I understand fully-automatic weapons are actually pretty hard to get a hold of at least for the regular citizen and thus are pretty rare. I know in the 1920’s and 30’s auto weapons became a scourge but in current times are there many criminal at least in the US still using automatic guns or this more of a hollywood fantasy? To clarify i’m not talking semi-automatic assault rifles and the like but full auto-fire. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-fully-automatic-weapons-used-in-crimes/665963/2 "2013-08-11T21:37:50Z")
Legally owned? Less than never. Last cite I saw said 2 murders since 1934, a couple dozen other non-homicides. Illegally? Some from a few decades ago could be modified. That’s much harder now. Others getting their hands on the depends on their wherewithal. I doubt Doughboy would been able to get one in real life. If anyone has the it’s probably involving the drug trade. Suffice it to say, people who buy Class III weapons are willing to put in usually $10,000 plus and also spend **tons** on ammo. They’re not usually planning heists. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-fully-automatic-weapons-used-in-crimes/665963/3 "2013-08-11T22:01:27Z")
I brought up a question in one of the gun threads a while ago, how easy is it to modify a semi-auto to full-auto, and the answer was “not”. Gunsmiths with the skills to turn a semi into a _reliable_ full auto are few and far between, and they’re making way too much money repairing guns for rich people to risk serious jail time. Semis like the Mac 10, which used to be modifiable by the application of a simple kit, now require extensive machining before they can be modified (see above re: reliable). As far as actual crime is concerned, there was one case of a police officer using a full-auto weapon that was in the evidence locker to commit a crime, and a few weeks ago somebody accidentally fired a burst from his illegally-owned full-auto rifle through the roof of his apartment, killing a child upstairs. ---
**Author:** ![auntlohimein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/74df32/32.png) [@auntlohimein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auntlohimein)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-fully-automatic-weapons-used-in-crimes/665963/4 "2013-08-11T22:06:54Z")
-In 33+ yrs working in or with law enforcement, once, an ingram Mac-11-used in a robbery- 9mm, [the mac-10 is .45cal], he threw it on the ground and ran, a good idea, as getting caught with an unlic. class 3 adds 10yrs to sentence or gets you 10yrs alone. btw no one hurt. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-fully-automatic-weapons-used-in-crimes/665963/5 "2013-08-11T22:27:12Z")
[The big shoot up in Hollywood](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout) is the only circumstance can recall. > [@](#): > > The North Hollywood shootout was an armed confrontation between two heavily armed and armored bank robbers and officers of the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) in the North Hollywood district of Los Angeles on February 28, 1997. Both robbers were killed, eleven police officers and seven civilians were injured, and numerous vehicles and other property were damaged or destroyed by the nearly 2,000 rounds of ammunition fired by the robbers and police.[2] ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-fully-automatic-weapons-used-in-crimes/665963/6 "2013-08-11T22:39:36Z")
> [@astro](#): > > [The big shoot up in Hollywood](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout) is the only circumstance can recall. [Nitpick] North Hollywood, not regular Hollywood. Not the same place. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-fully-automatic-weapons-used-in-crimes/665963/7 "2013-08-12T23:36:30Z")
Automatic weapons are quite expensive. Most crimes using guns are robberies, with a minor amount of ‘loot’ stolen. It’s just as easy to do such a robbery with a $25 ‘Saturday night special’ pistol as with an expensive automatic weapon. And that is a much better ‘return on investment’. Most criminals are chronically broke, and so don’t have money to invest in expensive tools of the trade – they use whatever cheap guns they can get their hands on. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-fully-automatic-weapons-used-in-crimes/665963/8 "2013-08-12T23:51:07Z")
In gangland warfare, especially drug-related, I would imagine. One needs firepower in those cases. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-fully-automatic-weapons-used-in-crimes/665963/9 "2013-08-13T01:36:43Z")
Yeah, but it turns out without proper training, the extra firepower is nearly useless and you end up hitting bystanders as well as (or instead of) your rivals. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-fully-automatic-weapons-used-in-crimes/665963/10 "2013-08-13T01:39:09Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > In gangland warfare, especially drug-related, I would imagine. One needs firepower in those cases. This is GQ. We’re not interested in what you would imagine. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-fully-automatic-weapons-used-in-crimes/665963/11 "2013-08-13T01:52:52Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > This is GQ. We’re not interested in what you would imagine. Wow… did you have some specific reason you really needed to dial the nastiness up for an innocuous comment? ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-fully-automatic-weapons-used-in-crimes/665963/12 "2013-08-13T02:03:52Z")
^ Look at his address. Might offer a clue (oops, another imagining.) ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-fully-automatic-weapons-used-in-crimes/665963/13 "2013-08-13T05:52:19Z")
Yeah, your normal automatic weapon gets about ~4 seconds of firing time with a normal ~30 round magazine and the trigger held down. Most “gangstas,” let alone most soldiers, won’t know how to manage that. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-fully-automatic-weapons-used-in-crimes/665963/14 "2013-08-13T12:08:45Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Wow… did you have some specific reason you really needed to dial the nastiness up for an innocuous comment? It irritates me that people press for legislation based on misconceptions and assumptions like that. and it was dismissive, not (IMO) nasty. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-fully-automatic-weapons-used-in-crimes/665963/15 "2013-08-13T13:36:59Z")
It’s not going to be a good answer for your question, **Keyser** , but it’s the best data I can find. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives [puts out a report every year](https://www.atf.gov/statistics/trace-data/2012-trace-data.html) listing all of the ‘firearms traces’ they are asked to perform. Often, a firearms trace is requested because the firearm is found at a crime scene, or suspected of being used in a crime, but not always. Anyway, [they break out the data a variety of ways](https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/statistics/tracedata-2012/types-by-state.xlsx), and one of those ways is they list all “machineguns” that were traced in the year. From the linked Excel sheet, you can see that in 2012, 679 traces were requested in the Machine Gun category, out of a total of 235,883 firearms/destructive device traces. Again, this doesn’t mean that 679 machineguns were used in a crime. It could be a lot less. Perhaps ATF was called to an arson scene, and among the torched possessions were several machine guns? Maybe they opened a storage unit and found an unregistered AK? On the other hand, it could be more—I don’t see how the BATFE could trace a firearm where the serial numbers were filed/etched off. Or where somebody built something like a Sten Gun. One thing you’ll find if you choose to dig further is that full auto firearms statistics are often conflated with semi-auto “assault weapons” statistics. It makes it difficult to determine what’s what. There have been several other threads on the Dope on this subject incidentally. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-fully-automatic-weapons-used-in-crimes/665963/16 "2013-08-13T19:16:25Z")
I’m not sure what “machine gun” means, but I also suspect it includes a lot of semi-automatic weapons of a particular shape. “[Any other weapon](http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-nfa-aow.html)” though, that implies a weapon where unlawful possession is 10 years in a federal PMITA prison. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-fully-automatic-weapons-used-in-crimes/665963/17 "2013-08-13T19:24:17Z")
> [@astro](#): > > [The big shoot up in [North] Hollywood](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout) is the only circumstance can recall. IIRC, the firearms used in that robbery had been illegally modified. If I _do_ remember correctly, then it was not like in the movies where they got ahold of stolen assault rifles. > [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > I’m not sure what “machine gun” means, but I also suspect it includes a lot of semi-automatic weapons of a particular shape. ‘Machine gun’ (and ‘assault rifle’) has a specific definition. A ‘machine gun’ can fire more than one round per pull of the trigger. ‘Semi-automatic’ means that you only get one round per pull of the trigger. Shape has nothing to do with it.