# How often are the names of people and places in countries with tonal languages pronounced tonally? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 14, 2013, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-the-names-of-people-and-places-in-countries-with-tonal-languages-pronounced-tonally/673895 "2013-11-14T09:59:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bita\_malt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@bita\_malt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bita_malt)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-the-names-of-people-and-places-in-countries-with-tonal-languages-pronounced-tonally/673895/1 "2013-11-14T09:59:06Z")
Many of the world’s languages (particularly in Asia and Africa – even in America among native tribes) are [tonal](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_%28linguistics%29). The syllable of each word typically has a distinct tone. And I know that Chinese names, for example, are often pronounced with tones. Yet, strangely enough, one does not generally encounter many names of people and places that are actually pronounced in a tonal (musical) fashion. For example, many Chinese cities (like Beijing and Shanghai) are pronounced in a straight non-tonal way. And most Chinese people I personally know pronounce their names without tone. Same thing is true with many African cities (like as in Botswana or South Africa). Famous examples of African names that lack tonal pronounciations are “shaka zulu”, “mandela”, “mugabe”and “kofi annan”. In fact, in my limited experience, I don’t think I have come across a single Southern African name that was pronounced tonally despite the fact that the native (Bantu) languages are tonal. Of course, this could be due to colonial influence or tendency to detonalize pronounciations in order to accommodate foreigners, but I don’t know how true that is in each case. Also, I’ve noticed that Nigeria seems to be an exception to this: all the names of people and places I’ve been exposed to from there have been very tonal. But it doesn’t seem to be the case with other African countries. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-the-names-of-people-and-places-in-countries-with-tonal-languages-pronounced-tonally/673895/2 "2013-11-14T11:09:41Z")
Beijing, Běijīng, has its tones like everything else. I think you are making the same mistake of those who think “everybody who talks different has an accent and those who speak like I do don’t have an accent”. I think you are thinking “tones which come naturally to me are not tones and tones which I find unnatural are tones”. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-the-names-of-people-and-places-in-countries-with-tonal-languages-pronounced-tonally/673895/3 "2013-11-14T11:22:28Z")
A fact about Thai language may be relevant: Thai personal names _never_ have tone marks. (This does _not_ apply to surnames, nicknames, or place names; by “Thai personal names” I mean specifically the traditional forenames that appear as first names on ID documents.) My two primary adult informants (Mrs. Septimus and Septirella) are away so I have only my 12-year old son, Thor. (… no I didn’t give him the awful name Septimus VIII like Septimus VI did to me.) Thor was unaware of the no-tone-marks-in-names rule, but on reflection realized it fit all examples he knew. It is possible for a Thai syllable without a tone mark to nevertheless have a non-common tone. But Thor was able to think of no names with that property. Westerners often follow a rule that names must appear in the Bible. I suspect the special nature of Thai personal names derives from a related rule dictating an origin in some ancient Sanskrit and/or Pali text(s). ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-the-names-of-people-and-places-in-countries-with-tonal-languages-pronounced-tonally/673895/4 "2013-11-16T05:26:27Z")
bita malt - you’re just not hearing the tones. Beijing and Shanghai both have very distinct tones. A poor analogy, is that I’m explaining color to a person blind from birth. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-the-names-of-people-and-places-in-countries-with-tonal-languages-pronounced-tonally/673895/5 "2013-11-16T05:46:35Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > bita malt - you’re just not hearing the tones. Beijing and Shanghai both have very distinct tones. Exactly. Native speakers of non-tonal languages aren’t going to easily hear tones. I can attest that in my vain attempts to learn some elementary Mandarin. Teacher: Tsu (pronounced with the correct tone) Me: Tsu (pronounces with my feeble attempt at the correct tone) Teacher: No, it’s Tsu (again, pronounced with the correct tone) Me: Tsu (missed tone) Teacher: … again pronouncing something I just couldn’t hear. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-the-names-of-people-and-places-in-countries-with-tonal-languages-pronounced-tonally/673895/6 "2013-11-16T08:03:38Z")
In my experience Chinese words/names fall into three categories when it comes to tones: - Those like Beijing which are easy and intuitive, maybe just because we’ve heard it so many times or they just line up well with our own language. - Those like [Fǎlún Gōng](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong) which I got wrong at first but once corrected I could say correctly without problem. Maybe I can consider this a subgroup of the previous group. - Those where the tones are subtle and difficult to hear and reproduce. I can keep trying to say it and mostly get it wrong but when I’m told “Yes!” I don’t even know what I did different and I can’t reproduce it. And the more I try the more difficult it gets due to fatigue. But the same happens to Chinese the other way around. I’ve had whole sessions trying to get my friend to pronounce “weird” correctly but she can’t. So when she makes fun of my Chinese pronunciation I just look at her and say “You are so WEIRD!”. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-the-names-of-people-and-places-in-countries-with-tonal-languages-pronounced-tonally/673895/7 "2013-11-17T01:31:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Exactly. Native speakers of non-tonal languages aren’t going to easily hear tones. I can attest that in my vain attempts to learn some elementary Mandarin. > > Teacher: Tsu (pronounced with the correct tone) > > Me: Tsu (pronounces with my feeble attempt at the correct tone) > > Teacher: No, it’s Tsu (again, pronounced with the correct tone) > > Me: Tsu (missed tone) > > Teacher: … again pronouncing something I just couldn’t hear. It takes time and effort to go tonal. BTW, Tsu is not any standard Romanization of Chinese that I recognize. Certainly is not pinyin. Where did you try to learn Mandarin? A black haired dictionary perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Flywheel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Flywheel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flywheel)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-the-names-of-people-and-places-in-countries-with-tonal-languages-pronounced-tonally/673895/8 "2013-11-17T01:48:07Z")
FWIW, at least one pronunciation guide (Robert Fradkin’s [The Well-Tempered Announcer](http://www.amazon.com/The-Well-Tempered-Announcer-Pronunciation-Classical/dp/025321064X)) suggests that Anglophone announcers should not attempt to pronounce Chinese names tonally. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendajo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Arrendajo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arrendajo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-the-names-of-people-and-places-in-countries-with-tonal-languages-pronounced-tonally/673895/9 "2013-11-17T01:59:11Z")
What others have said. I studied Mandarin for a few years a lived in China briefely. At first, I couldn’t even hear the tones. After a few months in Beijing, something sort of clicked in my brain and I realized I was picking up new words as sound + tone rather than sound alone. That’s when I knew I had turned the corner and was finally getting the language. Most English speakers mangle Mandarin words so badly, getting sound, syllable, and tone wrong, that a Chinese person would never recognize what they are trying to say. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-the-names-of-people-and-places-in-countries-with-tonal-languages-pronounced-tonally/673895/10 "2013-11-17T04:11:34Z")
They may flatten the tones for English speaking audiences, but the tones are definitely there in China, and quite important. I once ended up with a train ticket 1,000 miles away from where I was trying to go because I got lazy with the tones. When speaking English, some people find it easier to pronounce things using an English-fied approximation rather than having people mangle the original, much like someone with a Spanish name might dropped the rolled “R” when speaking English. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-often-are-the-names-of-people-and-places-in-countries-with-tonal-languages-pronounced-tonally/673895/11 "2013-11-17T11:31:38Z")
I’ve been conversing in Thai with varying competence for more than 30 years now, and I still do not handle tones properly. One of the worst problems is the antonym pair _near_ and _far_. The Thai words are _identical_ except for tone! When someone’s answering a question about near vs. far, I often have to repeat the answer with exaggerated tone to be sure. The words for 11 and 18 are almost homonyms, although the difference isn’t strictly one of tone. A joke I used to tell of myself, when my pronunciation was poor and I lived on Soi 11, was that I told the taxi to take me to Soi 13! (Much better than being taken to Soi 18.)