# How old, and how universal, are (non-seasonal) anniversary celebrations of randomly dated events? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 29, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-and-how-universal-are-non-seasonal-anniversary-celebrations-of-randomly-dated-events/716293 "2015-03-29T20:41:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-and-how-universal-are-non-seasonal-anniversary-celebrations-of-randomly-dated-events/716293/21 "2015-04-01T12:58:42Z")
One more problem is that holidays that always occur at a specific time of year (as will happen in any calendar that I know of other than a purely lunar calendar like the Muslim calendar) tend to take on seasonal aspects. The birth of Jesus has nothing to do with snow, but snow is a significant theme in celebrations of Christmas. The celebrations of both Easter and Passover, while commemorating historical events that (at least some) believers think happened at a specific time in history, incorporate symbols of spring, and incorporate astronomical events in calculating their dates. Even modern holidays that people don’t actually do much to celebrate are not immune- think about Memorial Day in the US. If you have a holiday that has been observed for a long time, it’s probably going to take on seasonal features over the centuries, unless your calendar doesn’t keep it in the same season (as the Muslim calendar does not). ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-and-how-universal-are-non-seasonal-anniversary-celebrations-of-randomly-dated-events/716293/22 "2015-04-01T13:08:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Commemoration of the Victory over Other Tribe-- Counts, because the battle against Other Tribe could have been any day at all, and it’s equally worth celebrating no matter when it was. Chanukah would seem to count here, because it _does_ commemorate a victory over another tribe (the Jews over the Greeks/Syrians). But it has taken on seasonal features over the years (lighting the menorah incorporates the theme of light that you see in lots of other winter festivals, dreidel would be a game you could play indoors in the winter, potatoes for latkes would have been available during winter when other foods might not be). Its date is calculated by a specific lunar phase, as are all dates in the Jewish calendar. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-and-how-universal-are-non-seasonal-anniversary-celebrations-of-randomly-dated-events/716293/23 "2015-04-01T14:27:02Z")
Note that the concept of anniversaries at least partially relates to the recognition of the importance of a year (repeat cycle of harvests, etc.) The ancient Egyptians had a process to celebrate that the Pharaoh had been on the throne X years (every 10, IIRC). Not sure about Mesopotamia’s attitude. Presumably, once the high priests nailed down “there are X days in a year, and we have a name/number for each” then the feast changes from “you ascended the throne in spring 10 years ago, it’s been 10 years, let’s celebrate” to “It’s been exactly X years, let’s celebrate today!” IIRC from the discussion about the Roman calendar, for example, before Julian they had 30-day months and a extra 5 days inserted; and realized that somehow their exact dates (solstice, etc.) drifted, so they’d insert 'extra days" every so often by decree to get back on track. So there you have the proto-anniversary framework, that days were named and numbered and certain measurable annual events _should_ occur on specific calendar days. (I guess some clever fellow figured out the pattern and got Julius or Augustus to decree regular leap days instead.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-and-how-universal-are-non-seasonal-anniversary-celebrations-of-randomly-dated-events/716293/24 "2015-04-02T23:31:54Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > IIRC from the discussion about the Roman calendar, for example, before Julian they had 30-day months and a extra 5 days inserted; and realized that somehow their exact dates (solstice, etc.) drifted, so they’d insert 'extra days" every so often by decree to get back on track. So there you have the proto-anniversary framework, that days were named and numbered and certain measurable annual events _should_ occur on specific calendar days. > > (I guess some clever fellow figured out the pattern and got Julius or Augustus to decree regular leap days instead.) Well, the “pattern” had been recognized for at least several hundred years prior to that. What was fairly novel in ancient calendrics was the practice of occasionally intercalating a single _day_ as opposed to a full (lunar) **month**. The Julian calendar completely abandoned the astronomical lunar month in its reckoning: the subdivisions of the Julian (and Gregorian) calendar called “months” have no relation to the cycles of lunar phases that traditionally defined “months”. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-and-how-universal-are-non-seasonal-anniversary-celebrations-of-randomly-dated-events/716293/25 "2015-04-03T00:50:16Z")
Not even close to annual, but the Egyptians had the fairly arbitrary [Sed Festivals](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sed_festival), which apparently dated from accession to the title of Pharaoh. That seems pretty damn ancient. In his lifetime [Ramses III](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rameses_III) seems to have initiated an annual celebration of his third great military victory as the 'Slaying of the [Meswesh’](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meshwesh) around 1175 B.C… But I think it’s unclear what the date actually was or if he associated it with a battle date or just incorporated his personal victory celebration with some other annual cultic holiday. Earliest actual _day_ I seem to be able to come up with is July 18 in Rome which “celebrated” an especially unlucky day when it was best to avoid anything serious like business as it primarily commemorated the Roman defeat at [Allia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Allia) ( and apparently secondarily the even earlier battle at [Cremera](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Cremera) ) that led directly to the first sack of Rome. That semi-verifiably pushes back a specific date to ~390 B.C… ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-and-how-universal-are-non-seasonal-anniversary-celebrations-of-randomly-dated-events/716293/26 "2015-04-04T12:57:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, the “pattern” had been recognized for at least several hundred years prior to that. What was fairly novel in ancient calendrics was the practice of occasionally intercalating a single _day_ as opposed to a full (lunar) **month**. The Julian calendar completely abandoned the astronomical lunar month in its reckoning: the subdivisions of the Julian (and Gregorian) calendar called “months” have no relation to the cycles of lunar phases that traditionally defined “months”. Yes, as I recall the Jewish and Islamic calendars still use months tied to the lunar cycle? Which makes the leap to non-lunar “months” and interesting novel innovation in calendar technology - basically using a purely solar calendar rather than a lunar one. You have to imagine some ancient high priest throwing up his hands and saying “this stupid moon never lines up with the solstices with any regular pattern, why don’t we forget about the stupid moon!!?” Also remember that AD (Anno Domini, The Year of Our Lord) was based on the traditional concept of numbering years based on a monarch’s reign (Something IIRC the Japanese traditional calendar still does). Once the days of the year are properly enumerated, it makes it a lot easier to say “this is the second year of our beloved monarch’s reign starting today, we’re done with the first”… which quite easily leads to celebrations of the anniversary of ascending the throne, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-and-how-universal-are-non-seasonal-anniversary-celebrations-of-randomly-dated-events/716293/27 "2015-04-04T18:33:34Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Earliest actual _day_ I seem to be able to come up with is July 18 in Rome which “celebrated” an especially unlucky day when it was best to avoid anything serious like business as it primarily commemorated the Roman defeat at [Allia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Allia) ( and apparently secondarily the even earlier battle at [Cremera](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Cremera) ) that led directly to the first sack of Rome. That semi-verifiably pushes back a specific date to ~390 B.C… Nice! And interesting that it was an anniversary commemorated essentially for the purpose of _avoiding_ the date, on grounds of ill luck. We tend to forget how serious ancient cultures were about identifying and compensating for what were seen as “unlucky” times. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-and-how-universal-are-non-seasonal-anniversary-celebrations-of-randomly-dated-events/716293/28 "2015-04-13T17:31:49Z")
The temple at Abu Simbel (recently relocated to avoid being inundated by Lake Nasser) was designed so that the sun shone down the center of the temple and onto 3 of the 4 gods on a specific day every year (actually 2 days, spring and fall). There’s some question whether these were deliberate date selections, but certainly it was possible to mark and take note, and possibly celebrate, a specific day for no other reason than it was a specific day of the year (or solar progression). > [@](#): > > **Solar phenomena** > > It is believed that the axis of the temple was positioned by the ancient Egyptian architects in such a way that on October 22 and February 22, the rays of the sun would penetrate the sanctuary and illuminate the sculptures on the back wall, except for the statue of Ptah, the god connected with the Underworld, who always remained in the dark. People gather at Abu Simbel to witness this remarkable sight, on October 21 and February 21. > > These dates are allegedly the king’s birthday and coronation day respectively, but there is no evidence to support this, though it is quite logical to assume that these dates had some relation to a great event, such as the jubilee celebrating the thirtieth anniversary of the pharaoh’s rule. And that was 1264BC. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-and-how-universal-are-non-seasonal-anniversary-celebrations-of-randomly-dated-events/716293/29 "2015-04-13T20:30:53Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Yes, as I recall the Jewish and Islamic calendars still use months tied to the lunar cycle? Which makes the leap to non-lunar “months” and interesting novel innovation in calendar technology - basically using a purely solar calendar rather than a lunar one. You have to imagine some ancient high priest throwing up his hands and saying “this stupid moon never lines up with the solstices with any regular pattern, why don’t we forget about the stupid moon!!?” The moon and the solstices don’t line up in any kind of nice way. You pretty much have to fudge one or the other, or else ignore it completely, to make a workable calendar. The Gregorian calendar ignores the moon, but keeps a vestige of lunar timekeeping in months. The Islamic calendar ignores the sun, and their festivals cycle through the year. The Jewish calendar fudges to keep the months somewhat in line with the sun, by adding an extra month every few years. I know the Chinese calendar does incorporate both the sun and the moon, like the Jewish calendar (Chinese New Year is always at the same phase of the moon and always at about the same time of the solar year), but I’m not sure of the details of how it does this. I suspect you might be less likely to ignore the sun if your society is using your calendar for agricultural purposes (and isn’t using another calendar for that concurrently). The Chinese and the Jews obviously managed to make it work without a precise solar calendar. I’m not sure what agricultural Muslim societies did before they adopted the Gregorian civil calendar. The Iranians at least had their own calendar dating back to pre-Islamic times. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-and-how-universal-are-non-seasonal-anniversary-celebrations-of-randomly-dated-events/716293/30 "2015-04-13T20:58:09Z")
The Moon can be relevant for agricultural purposes, if you need to work overtime for some tasks, and are using it for illumination. And of course, the closer you get to the equator, the more leeway you have on solar-year timing, and note that both the Jews and the Chinese are from fairly low latitudes. ---
**Author:** ![jezzaOZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9a28c/32.png) [@jezzaOZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jezzaOZ)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-and-how-universal-are-non-seasonal-anniversary-celebrations-of-randomly-dated-events/716293/31 "2015-04-13T22:26:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The Moon can be relevant for agricultural purposes, if you need to work overtime for some tasks, and are using it for illumination. And of course, the closer you get to the equator, the more leeway you have on solar-year timing, and note that both the Jews and the Chinese are from fairly low latitudes. A big effect of the Moon is the tides which affect fishing and navigation. Large tidal ranges affects the lives of Estuarine dwellers in how and when they travel, and when they harvest and bring goods to market. However tidal ranges do vary wildly and in the Mediterranean they are fairly small and not very relevant but in many densely populated areas such as Bangladesh they are quite large and very relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-and-how-universal-are-non-seasonal-anniversary-celebrations-of-randomly-dated-events/716293/32 "2015-04-14T12:39:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The Moon can be relevant for agricultural purposes, if you need to work overtime for some tasks, and are using it for illumination. And of course, the closer you get to the equator, the more leeway you have on solar-year timing, and note that both the Jews and the Chinese are from fairly low latitudes. So are the Egyptians, though, and they felt the need for a more precise solar calendar. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-and-how-universal-are-non-seasonal-anniversary-celebrations-of-randomly-dated-events/716293/33 "2015-04-14T19:24:38Z")
The Egyptians have a fairly sharply-defined annual event that’s critical for their agriculture, though, the flooding of the Nile. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-and-how-universal-are-non-seasonal-anniversary-celebrations-of-randomly-dated-events/716293.md?page=1)