# How old is the Red V Blue trope? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2012, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125 "2012-02-27T06:51:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125/1 "2012-02-27T06:51:37Z")
It seems to me, that a red team, and a blue team have always been against each other in some contest or another. Just how long has this trope been in use? \*\*I specifically mean the colors red and blue, used in a two party contest. \*\* The assumption is that black and white would be older, and thus is not what I am asking. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125/2 "2012-02-27T07:21:00Z")
Before the 2000 election election maps traditionally used blue for the incombant party and red for the challengers. The intensity of that election with all of the fallout (including electoral map after electoral map) caused the “Dems are Blue Repubs are Red” meme to enter the national consciousness and the networks have gone along to simplify things. Nowadays it can be rather jarring when you spot something that doesn’t go along with the new standard. [Dave Leip](http://uselectionatlas.org/)’s site for instance decided it would be too much work to switch all of those maps. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125/3 "2012-02-27T07:23:42Z")
Hurm, looking at Wikipedia maybe I was wrong about Blue = incumbents. But yeah, since 2000. [Red states and blue states](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_states_and_blue_states) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125/4 "2012-02-27T08:26:15Z")
It’s unclear whether The OP is talking about two-sided conflict in general, or just in the context of modern American politics. I’m assuming the former. As a data point, the American Civil War _wasn’t_ red vs blue. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125/5 "2012-02-27T08:30:22Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125/6 "2012-02-27T08:31:51Z")
Boxing rings have a red corner and a blue corner, and so far as I know have had for a very long time. The challenger gets the red corner, the champion the blue. When televising boxing matches became common, red and blue were sometimes replaced with black and white, until the prevalence of colour television made that unnecessary. I suspect the political convention is taken from the boxing ring. ---
**Author:** ![yendis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed8c4c/32.png) [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125/7 "2012-02-27T08:40:56Z")
The Prussians used blue(friendly) vs red(enemy) in wargaming in the Nineteenth Century. A convention created by [Helmuth von Moltke the Elder](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_von_Moltke_the_Elder). “Moltke originated the use of the colors blue for friendly forces and red for hostile forces in strategy or wargaming. Hence the term blue on blue fire in friendly fire situations.” ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125/8 "2012-02-27T10:08:06Z")
The Ancient Romans had four chariot racing teams: Red, White, Blue, and Green. The rivalry between them was intense, with opposing fans occasionally erupting into violence. The [Nika riots of 532](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots) are probably the most famous example of this, with 30,000 killed in Constantinople, though in that case the friction was between the Blues and Greens, not the Blues and Reds. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125/9 "2012-02-27T12:15:37Z")
[The red car and the blue car had a race. All red wants to do is stuff his face.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4drNFXd6dw&feature=related) So at least 1989. In the UK, the official colours of the two main parties, Labour and the Conservatives, are red and blue respectively. The labour party adopted the red flag as their emblem when it was founded in the late 19th century. Not sure about the Conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125/10 "2012-02-27T12:53:44Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > It’s unclear whether The OP is talking about two-sided conflict in general, or just in the context of modern American politics. I’m assuming the former. \*\*This. \*\* The assumption was, as it was GQ and not Politics, that Politics would not enter the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125/11 "2012-02-27T13:05:47Z")
In Canada, red has been the colour of the Liberals since before Confederation in 1867, and blue the colour of the Conservatives, again pre-dating Confederation. In fact, in Quebec, the parties were named by the colours: les Rouges et les Bleus, rather than Liberal and Conservative, used in Ontario and the Maritimes. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125/12 "2012-02-27T14:36:49Z")
In Britain, also, major political parties have been associated with colors since long before this trope became widespread in America. I do not know how far back it goes (but if it goes back to 1867 in Canada, it is probably older in Britain), but for all my life, and, I am sure, long before, the Conservative Party color has been blue, the Labour Party has been red, and the Liberals have been yellow (or, latterly, orange, to show up better on posters). The association of red with the political left in general, and socialism and communism in particular, is widespread and almost certainly older than the UK Labour Party. I rather think the same is true of blue and conservatism. Contemporary Americans, of course, get it all backwards, much to the confusion of other nations. One might think that most of the Tea Partiers are old enough to remember when red meant communist, but, I suppose, consistency is not really their thing. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125/13 "2012-02-27T15:21:30Z")
Yeah, long before the blue/red thing became tied to political parties in 2000, I remember that any time two competing sides were drawn up for whatever purpose, the most common scheme was blue against red. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125/14 "2012-02-27T16:13:34Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > It’s unclear whether The OP is talking about two-sided conflict in general, or just in the context of modern American politics. I’m assuming the former. Actually I think you are right and I missed the boat. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125/15 "2012-02-27T16:28:00Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > The Ancient Romans had four chariot racing teams: Red, White, Blue, and Green. The rivalry between them was intense, with opposing fans occasionally erupting into violence. The [Nika riots of 532](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots) are probably the most famous example of this, with 30,000 killed in Constantinople, though in that case the friction was between the Blues and Greens, not the Blues and Reds. But white and red were the original colors. And while there were soon four colors (actually six but two died out quickly), the races were soon dominated by blue and green to the point that by the Byzantine era, they had social and political power, while the whites and reds never were very notable. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125/16 "2012-02-27T16:48:09Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > But white and red were the original colors. And while there were soon four colors (actually six but two died out quickly), the races were soon dominated by blue and green to the point that by the Byzantine era, they had social and political power, while the whites and reds never were very notable. The OP wasn’t asking about politics in particular, though, only about red–blue conflicts in general. And the Roman chariot races certainly qualify, even if it was blue and green that came to dominate in later centuries. I don’t think anyone here has so far come up with an example which antedates the chariot teams. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125/17 "2012-02-28T01:18:00Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > The OP wasn’t asking about politics in particular, though, only about red–blue conflicts in general. And the Roman chariot races certainly qualify, even if it was blue and green that came to dominate in later centuries. I don’t think anyone here has so far come up with an example which antedates the chariot teams. I just don’t see anything about chariot races that make them a red/blue thing. It was white/red at first, then /white/red/blue/green, of which blue/green were the only ones who had a very pronounced rivalry. If just having red and blue as some of the colors counts, surely the examples would be endless. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-old-is-the-red-v-blue-trope/614125/18 "2012-02-28T07:41:58Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > If just having red and blue as some of the colors counts, surely the examples would be endless. And in that case, the Republican/Democrat and Conservative/(Liberal|Labour) examples are out as well, given the existence of other parties.