# How Partisan are You? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 3, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384 "2018-10-03T18:31:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/41 "2018-10-04T00:20:18Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > Yeah, I’m sorry too. Now I remember why I stopped posting to SDMB, it can get toxic rather fast. Enjoy your echo chamber, folks. …I think this is an important point. These conspiracy theories you’ve just gish galloped (and I feel entirely fair characterizing what you’ve posted as conspiracy theories) didn’t come out of nowhere. I almost feel the need to thank-you for crossing over the partisan-divide for a minute to let us know what is happening over the over-side of the bubble. To everyone on this side of the “echo-chamber”: this is what they are thinking. This is what they are saying, this is the narrative that is being spread. This is where the battle-lines have been drawn. It isn’t just “left-vs-right”. Its something else entirely. And its really fucking scary. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/42 "2018-10-04T00:46:18Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > When it comes to Kavanaugh vs. Ford in 2018 or Trump vs. Clinton in 2016, it seems the American people are so divided, two people could come out of the same movie screening and swear they saw completely different films. > > We might quietly admit to ourselves that maybe we are slightly biased and maybe we see things through the lens of our chosen political affiliation. Or we might staunchly claim that we are above such biases. But I wonder how many of us have actually stopped to closely examine our bias? > > I think a relatively easy two-minute thought experiment would illuminate this matter, so I ask the SDMB to participate. The Kavanaugh hearings provide a good backdrop. > > Step 1: Write down your initial thoughts. Do you side with Kavanaugh or Ford? > > Step 2: Let’s switch [Republican] with [Democrat]. Imagine all the key players have a [R] or [D] sign around their necks. Flip the signs to the opposite, switching the values. Ford is now a conservative accuser; Kavanaugh is a liberal nominee to the Supreme Court. > > Step 3: Do you still side with the same person in Step 1? > > Step 4: For added fun, switch [male] with [female]. What if Christopher Ford is a Republican male accuser and Brenda Kavanaugh is a liberal female judge nominated by a Democrat president? > > I wonder if anyone would admit their opinion would change, if the facts and evidences are unchanged, only the politics. Personally, I would side with Kavanaugh regardless of political part or gender. No, I’d probably be right where I am today wrt Kav and Ford. I don’t think my arguments or thoughts are motivated by either party. I might, I admit, be arguing slightly different if the boards thoughts were different, as I generally enjoy arguing against the mainstream. I like playing devils advocate because, frankly, it helps me sharpen my arguments for when I’m arguing with friends and family, some of who are very conservative. I figure if folks here can shred the arguments I make then I can crib their stuff and look brilliant at home. 😛 In this specific case, I’d still be saying that I think Ford is basically telling the truth…she really believes she was assaulted. Whether she was or not, I couldn’t say. My WAG is she was, but the mind is a funny thing, and memory is as well. And we are talking about a 15 year old who was also drinking when this all went down 37 years ago. But I’d think that whoever the Republican was who was sitting on the info and waited to spring it at the last minute was slimy, and I’d think that the progressive Kav, if he did the same sort of antics would be as unsuited as I think this Kav is, based on those antics. I’d probably be a bit more biased in the favor of a progressive candidate, depending on where the guy stood on some things…certainly I wouldn’t have the same skin crawling part that I do with a religious conservative. But, generally I think I’d be where I’m at, regardless. How partisan am I? Very. I’m militantly independent and moderate and think that both Republicans and Democrats are shitty, as I do left and right wingers. I think Republicans are definitely MORE shitty, and conservatives have lost their minds and their way and that both Republicans and conservatives have been completely hijacked by Trump and the tea party nutters. But I’m not that impressed by the Dems either with their infighting and left wing nuttery, and their magical ability to snatch defeat from the slavering jaws of victory. I’m REALLY pissed at all of the left wingers who took their marbles and stayed home because their buddy Bernie didn’t get the nod, and who wouldn’t hold their nose and vote for Clinton…more pissed at them than at the clueless blue collar rubes snowed by Trump who voted for him. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/43 "2018-10-04T01:03:03Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > \Care to enlighten this poor ignorant soul? I care, but I can’t enlighten you, because you appear to have no internal way to sift complete insane wacko shit from real probabilities. Without this, you are going to be lost forever. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/44 "2018-10-04T01:09:25Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > Yeah, I’m sorry too. Now I remember why I stopped posting to SDMB, it can get toxic rather fast. Enjoy your echo chamber, folks. So challenging bizarre conspiracy theories about implanted memories is an echo chamber note? What are we echoing - critical thinking skills? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/45 "2018-10-04T01:21:36Z")
I am confident there are Providence stevedores with anger issues that been in fewer fights on boats in Rhode Island than Kavanaugh. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/46 "2018-10-04T04:48:00Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > Step 1: Write down your initial thoughts. Do you side with Kavanaugh or Ford? > > Step 2: Let’s switch [Republican] with [Democrat]. Imagine all the key players have a [R] or [D] sign around their necks. Flip the signs to the opposite, switching the values. Ford is now a conservative accuser; Kavanaugh is a liberal nominee to the Supreme Court. > > Step 3: Do you still side with the same person in Step 1? > > Step 4: For added fun, switch [male] with [female]. What if Christopher Ford is a Republican male accuser and Brenda Kavanaugh is a liberal female judge nominated by a Democrat president? > > I wonder if anyone would admit their opinion would change, if the facts and evidences are unchanged, only the politics. Personally, I would side with Kavanaugh regardless of political part or gender. 1. Ford because she has nothing to gain from coming forward, she talked about this long before Kavanaugh was being nominated, and Kavanaugh has multiple accusations. Also he is trying to avoid a legit FBI investigation while his accusers are calling for one. 2. When Al Franken got his accusation, I said ‘lets see what the investigation finds’ when the first accusation came out. I figured that if there was only one accusation, it may be false. But when other women came forward I realized it was likely true. I regret that he had to step down, and without him Sessions wouldn’t have recused himself (and we wouldn’t have Mueller in charge of the investigation). But I didn’t pretend Franken’s accusers were just making it up. 3. See point 2. 4. See point 2. Again, the issue comes down to authoritarianism. Most people who score high in the personality trait of authoritarianism have moved to the GOP. Authoritarians tend to be very morally dubious and only concerned with power and fear of outsiders. The left does not have a massive subgroup of authoritarians in it. So as a whole we won’t react the same way. I believe Trump won 86% of white voters who score high in authoritarianism. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/47 "2018-10-04T04:50:48Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > As far as I know, the accusations are baseless because there’s no solid details and no evidence whatsoever. It’s all based on a rather hazy testimony from Ford and she changes her claims whenever they are demonstrated to be false. The details she provides are suspiciously similar to excerpts from Mark Judge’s 1997 book “Wasted”, so much so that I wouldn’t be surprised if someone manipulated Ford’s memories based just on reading that book. The gaps in her knowledge seems to line up with information that Mark Judge did not include in his book, some of it the author intentionally left out. Sadly, one of the fictional characters in the book was unfortunately named “Bart O’Kavanaugh”, which is how we got to today’s circus. > > I suspect Ford has a false memory, possibly implanted by Democratic lawyers, originating from this fictional character. If that is the case, I believe Ford’s testimony in so much that I believe Ford thinks she was sexually assaulted and groped by the character Bart O’Kavanaugh, which she is now 100% sure is Judge Brett Kavanaugh. But then I could also say I am 100% sure Ford was sexually assaulted by Matt Damon and Harvey Weinstein, but Ford mistook them for Kavanaugh and Mark Judge look-alikes. I have the same amount of evidence as Ford, and all accusations must be believed, right? > > Look, I admit I might be a victim of my own echo chamber. If there is some solid evidence of the assault, I would love to see it. I haven’t read through all the SDMB threads, so maybe I missed something. The way people post here, it’s like there is some solid proof out there. Care to enlighten this poor ignorant soul? Ford told her husband and therapist back in 2012, possibly other people. At least 2 other women have come forward. Mark Judge refuses to talk about these things. The women are pushing for FBI investigations, Kavanaugh is not. EDIT: How do you feel about the accusations of sex crimes against Roy Moore or Donald Trump? Are they real? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/48 "2018-10-04T08:23:58Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > I suspect Ford has a false memory, possibly implanted by Democratic lawyers, originating from this fictional character. Umm… well, others have responded more eloquently than I could. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/49 "2018-10-04T10:21:18Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > Thanks for posting the link. And everyone please do take your time to answer. Instead of “oh, he’s a liberal now? yeah, still guilty”, I want us to pretend Thanos snapped his fingers and changed literally everything around about the politics. If Kavanaugh is the enemy, he just became the last, best hope of keeping the Supreme Court on your side. Waitaminute - Kavanaugh isn’t the “last best hope” of anything! The senate could drop him in a heartbeat and pick from anyone on a long list of other Federalist Institute candidates and miss this whole insane hubbub. Instead, they’re insisting on dragging this out, because… What makes Kavanaugh so uniquely desireable? > [@](#): > > (I’ve seen both yearbooks, and it’s telling how nobody talks about the other yearbook). Well Ford is neither accused of sexual assault nor being interviewed for a seat on the Supreme Court nor has she made any claims about her relationship with alcohol. It’s telling of context, not bias. > [@The\_Controvert](#): > > If we really switched the party affiliations, the left and right leaning media channels would be singing a different tune. The idealogical echo chamber would change. Your friends might be pushing the opposite side. The evidence might have been presented to you differently. You, yourself might be pushing a different set of arguments because you want to be right and you believe your side to be more correct. What, you mean if the left-wing media were as shamelessly propagandist as Fox, Breitbart, and co? If the democratic party was run by a self-aggrandizing idiot who has no fucking clue what he’s doing? I mean, I’d probably change my political affiliation based on that… > [@The\_Controvert](#): > > I don’t believe either yearbook (not his, nor hers) is relevant Kavanaugh’s yearbook is relevant because it puts the lie to claims he made under oath in court. It’s relevant because it exposes him as a liar. > [@The\_Controvert](#): > > I suspect Ford has a false memory, possibly implanted by Democratic lawyers, originating from this fictional character. I guess you’re not aware that Ford first brought her concerns forward before Kavanaugh was nominated, back when she heard he was shortlisted on a list with 25 other nominees. [https://amp.slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/09/christine-blasey-ford-brett-kavanaugh-hearing-explanation-timing.html](https://amp.slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/09/christine-blasey-ford-brett-kavanaugh-hearing-explanation-timing.html) Also this is incredibly insulting. > [@The\_Controvert](#): > > Yeah, I’m sorry too. Now I remember why I stopped posting to SDMB, it can get toxic rather fast. Enjoy your echo chamber, folks. Man you’re the guy who said something awful enough to alienate Quartz, who is definitely on your side on this one. It’s not our fault this thread went to shit. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/50 "2018-10-04T13:42:16Z")
I would not change my position in any way if Kavanaugh were a liberal nominee. I am being 100% fair-minded and non-partisan. Just like everyone else in the thread. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/51 "2018-10-04T16:26:34Z")
It’s not that I necessarily buy into every single policy of the Democrats, it’s just that I think the Republicans as currently constituted are a danger to the country and should not be in power. Not sure how partisan that makes me. Re: the OP’s hypothetical, I believe I would consider a Democrat with Kavanaugh’s baggage to be unsuitable for the position of Supreme Court Justice, whether or not **Shodan** happens to think I’m lying. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/52 "2018-10-04T18:41:06Z")
Well, I’d like to think this wasn’t about partisanship, and more about presumption of innocence when accused of a crime. At this point, I believe something might have happened to Ford, but I’m not going to say Kavanaugh is guilty because there is zero contemporary corroboration with her story, and it’s hella old. Democrats have already dismissed the allegations about Ellison for no corroboration, so why should Kavanaugh be any different? I’m not going to say what I would do in a hypothetical. What I will say, is that when Bill Clinton said “I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky”, I believed him until there was incontrovertible evidence otherwise. And I was more conservative back then than I am now. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/53 "2018-10-04T18:45:11Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > For me the political alignments and sexes of the parties are irrelevant; I believe in the presumption of innocence. A serious charge has been made, with no corroborating evidence. I do not believe in mob rule, either. This is the most important thing, ultimately. Barring some unexpected surprise from the FBI investigation, there’s no corroborating evidence to the accusations, and they should be treated as meaningless. Which leads to a rather big problem. Kavanaugh is politically unsuitable to be a judge, due to his extreme positions, and possibly temperamentally unsuited as well - although deciding that on the basis of his response to false accusations of serious crimes is a bit flimsy. However, there’s no good choice but to confirm him now, otherwise the Senate will show that everyone is vulnerable to false accusations, and any appointment will be stopped by them. Really, the Democrats should have attempted to verify these accusations before releasing them. Sadly, that’s not what people on the left want these days - any accusation of sexual misconduct counts as proof. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/54 "2018-10-04T19:45:40Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Democrats have already dismissed the allegations about Ellison for no corroboration, so why should Kavanaugh be any different? What incredible bullshit. Democrats have called for a full investigation regarding the accusations against Ellison, and haven’t dismissed anything at all. And, unlike Kavanaugh, Ellison himself has called for an investigation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/55 "2018-10-04T19:47:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Really, the Democrats should have attempted to verify these accusations before releasing them. You mean they should have called for a full and thorough investigation, like they have from the beginning? The counterfactual narrative to justify ignoring accusations is just incredible, and infuriating. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/56 "2018-10-04T19:53:28Z")
As a non-partisan (not a member of a political party, did not vote for Trump or Hillary), I find the woman’s accusations credible. Kavanaugh also comes across as an entitled douchebag. That said, the D’s are also taking full advantage of this situation and they are certainly not helping matters by their behavior (Booker I’m looking at you). Why is Kavanaugh so personally important to the R’s? Why can’t they just nominate the next guy on the list who doesn’t have a cloud hanging over him? I don’t get it at all. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/57 "2018-10-04T19:55:55Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Well, I’d like to think this wasn’t about partisanship, and more about presumption of innocence when accused of a crime. Let me stop you right there. Kavanaugh is not being tried in a criminal court, so there is no presumption of innocence. He has no due process rights, and he does not have a right to the job of Supreme Court Justice. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/58 "2018-10-04T19:59:19Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > As a non-partisan (not a member of a political party, did not vote for Trump or Hillary), I find the woman’s accusations credible. > > Kavanaugh also comes across as an entitled douchebag. > > That said, the D’s are also taking full advantage of this situation and they are certainly not helping matters by their behavior (Booker I’m looking at you). > > Why is Kavanaugh so personally important to the R’s? Why can’t they just nominate the next guy on the list who doesn’t have a cloud hanging over him? I don’t get it at all. Well, for one, a “do-over” at this point definitely is not a guaranteed nomination, definitely not by November, and maybe not even January. And who’s to say some cloud isn’t going to be cast over the next guy or gal? Any nom is going to the the fight of their lives out of democrats given the shift of the court. We’ve already seen that uncorroborated accusations == cloud over your head. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/59 "2018-10-04T20:01:27Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Let me stop you right there. Kavanaugh is not being tried in a criminal court, so there is no presumption of innocence. He has no due process rights, and he does not have a right to the job of Supreme Court Justice. You accuse someone of gang rape and you get presumption of innocence, period. This isn’t stealing office supplies. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384/60 "2018-10-04T20:03:29Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > As a non-partisan (not a member of a political party, did not vote for Trump or Hillary), I find the woman’s accusations credible. > > Kavanaugh also comes across as an entitled douchebag. > > That said, the D’s are also taking full advantage of this situation and they are certainly not helping matters by their behavior (Booker I’m looking at you). > > Why is Kavanaugh so personally important to the R’s? Why can’t they just nominate the next guy on the list who doesn’t have a cloud hanging over him? I don’t get it at all. This is the theory as I’ve heard it. Keep in mind it is only a theory. Justice Anthony Kennedy has a son who worked at Deutsche bank, and loaned a billion dollars to Donald Trump. This money may have been laundered from Russia. Kavanaugh is very partisan and feels a (republican) president should not be indicted or have to answer for crimes committed in office. Kennedy and Trump made an agreement that if Kennedy steps down and Kavanaugh takes over, if any of Trump’s crimes come to the supreme court the SCOTUS will have a new justice who will always side with the administration. Also it is possible Kennedy would have to recuse himself due to his son’s potential crimes while Kavanaugh will not. So basically both Kennedy and Trump wanted Kavanaugh because they knew Kavanaugh would help cover up Trump and Kennedy’s son’s crimes. McConnell didn’t want Kavanaugh due to all the skeletons in his closet but he was overruled. That is the theory I’ve heard. No idea how true it is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-partisan-are-you/822384.md?page=4)