# How Patriotic Are You? (Particularly Antipodean and Euro Dopers) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 13, 2003, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001 "2003-11-13T08:36:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001/21 "2003-11-14T00:21:53Z")
With the exception that I’m moderately good at trundling out names of dusty old Australian Prime Ministers, I pretty much could have written **Jervoise** ’s OP myself. It’s basically how I feel about Australia. I love _Waltzing Matilda_ much more than our official anthem, as I get older, I’m making my peace with the flag (it’s got the British Union flag on it, which is very divisive here), and I’m proud of the knockabout spirit, and Anzac. I’m not proud of the bigots that use our symbols to hide their un-Australian agendas, or at minimum to pretend that this country doesn’t have its share of problems. Like **Jervoise** , I get a lump in my throat when I read or hear Dorothea Mackellar’s _My Country_ (it’s in the OP), and I also felt proud when I head this silly thing (from a Foster’s ad, of all things. I still don’t drink Foster’s though): I don’t have a kangaroo for a pet I don’t wrestle with crocodiles And I don’t wear a cork hat I fight wars But never start wars I would rather make peace I can wear my country’s flag with pride I am a rock I am the ocean I am the island continent My neighbours are the Smiths, the Wilsons, the Santerellis, the De Costis, the Wongs and the Jagamarras I play football without a helmet I like beetroot on my hamburger I ride in the front seat of the taxi I believe it’s a prawn not a shrimp I believe the world is round and down under is on top I believe Australia is the best address on Earth And Australians brew the best beer. I am a patriot. I can’t explain it. When I think about it, patriotism doesn’t make sense. I don’t think my country is necessarily the best in the world. But yeah, the flag-waving and stuff can bring a tear to my eye if it is done right. ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001/22 "2003-11-14T01:31:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spoons \* > **(And if I can ask–why was your post directed at only “Antipodean and Euro Dopers”? I’m rather curious.)** It wasn’t “only” Aussies/NZers and Europeans–I just said “particularly”. Chiefly because I’m rather curious about how my fellow Australians feel (i.e., whether my feelings are unusual or commonplace); also because I wanted to query my impression that many people from the UK disdain nationalism. I’m interested in responses from Dopers from all nations, though. Thanks for the great replies. \*\*Triss: > [@](#): > > Not that our history is bloodless or boring. I didn’t think the history of Australia was, either. I was under the impression that your country started out as a penal colony. And that at least some of the British convicts who were sent there were guilty of such heinous crimes as, for example, stealing bread because they were hungry. I understood that because the British laws were so draconian, their prisons were over-flowing, and thence came the white man to the Land Down Under. (You’ll correct me if I’m wrong, probably) > > I bet if we could hear some of the stories of the first convict settlers, we might find them quite bloody interesting. \*\*The convict era is an interesting read, but contrary to what some commentators would write, I believe it bears reduced relevance to contemporary Australians. Sure, we’d like to believe it has imparted on us a sense of egalitarianism, a disdain for authority and a sense of fair play and “mateship”, but personally I feel these stem from other disparite causes. We don’t have the shared history of, for example, the US–whereas an American _may_ be able to trace a bloody victorious rebellion from a foreign empire, a war fought on home soil, a long and sustained battle for civil rights, and draw patriotic fervour from these past events, us Australian find less of a passionate and heartfelt sense of nationhood from our history. (Yes, the above is entirely conjecture. :)) \*\*tiggeril: > [@](#): > > I’m not patriotic because I’m proud of where I was born. I’m patriotic because I’m thankful for what I have and who I am. I’m disappointed in the people who think of American patriots as all the in-your-face hicks when I think that most of them are people like me. \*\*That’s a great way of putting it. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001/23 "2003-11-14T01:42:08Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by dorfl \* > **Oh, and while I am at it, no matter what nation you are from, how can you be “proud to be an [insert nation here]”? What the F**_ did you do to be from [insert nation here]? You can be proud of an achievement, but not something that was determined by the luck of the draw! E.g., you can be proud to have served your nation in the military, but to be proud of the constitution [the kangaroos, the soccer team, the military force, the fact that you are a democracy, your 2000 years of history, whatever it is your nation claims to be special at] is outright ridiculous.\*\* Pride is an interesting one. Have you ever been proud of your parents? Proud of your looks? Proud of your native intelligence? Or is pride in these things to be avoided because they’re chiefly due to the luck of the draw? To turn it around, have you ever been ashamed of something or someone even though you weren’t directly responsible of it or them? Have you been ashamed of yourself for failing at something, even though the task was always beyond you? \ I’d be one of the first to admit the successes and failures of my country are not attributable to me. But it’s hard to analyse the “logic” behind my feelings of pride – or shame – when we all feel these things in varying degrees for a slew of occurences beyond our control. ---
**Author:** ![cajela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cajela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cajela)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001/24 "2003-11-14T02:03:34Z")
**Lobsang** , what an excellent point - and it has a couple of pointy ends to it. Patriotism is feeling proud of something you didn’t create? Well, maybe so. And that can be good or bad. First, you _do_ have a part of it, even if that part is very small. I am Australian, and part of what it is to be Australian is what i do, and how I act, and who I vote for, and how I relate to people. Australians are ‘we’, not ‘they’. I can be proud of our achievements and our decency. Similarly, I feel ashamed when Johnny Stalin (Man-of-Steel, thanks Dubbya for the name) Howard’s government treats people with such blatant unfairness. Even though it wasn’t me, it’s part of my group. But there’s a differnce between taking responsibility and taking credit. Puffing yourself up with pride over what other people have done, that’s wrong. Using national symbols to hide your moral bankruptcy is repulsive. “Flag-waving”, we often call it here. I like it that we are distrustful of these purely symbolic “patriotic” gestures. Flags have their place, and I have no problem with them at funerals and state occasions and for identification at international events, sporting or otherwise. But not for every day. And I’d be perfectly happy if we changed it, like the Canadians did. (As long as it doesn’t end up with a bloody kangaroo on it.) And yes, my sentiments largely echo **Jervoise** & **The Loaded Dog**. I love a sunburnt country indeed. Best place in the world. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001/25 "2003-11-14T02:39:45Z")
I dont feel patriotic, but after travelling extensively around australia, feel a strong fondness for our land. I am proud that we have the country we have and hope to god we dont totally fuck it up. The flag-waving anthem singing thing does not do anything for me, but backpacking around other countries and australia does make me feel very very fortunate indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001/26 "2003-11-14T02:50:58Z")
I said patriotism is irrational. Who can deny that humans are irrational. I am irrational. I used to be very patriotic. I was proud of Britain’s empire. the belief that it was the largest/greatest/widest empire in history. I was proud that as recent as 60 years ago we were the undisputed rulers of the sea (the best Navy) etc etc blah blah. But that was before logic and reason took over - I soon saw that patriotism is not useful. It does more harm than good. It alienates. It does not make much sense. I suppose it is ok to be proud of what your country has done for you, but it is insulting to be proud of your country for what other poeple have made it. It is as if you are taking credit for their hard work, their suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001/27 "2003-11-14T02:55:49Z")
Having said all that. Patriotism, and love of a country are two different things. There are a lot of things about britain that I am fond of - the scenery, the inbuilt cynicism of it’s people, the lack of religiousness, the feeling that it is home that is inevitable if you grow up in a place. ---
**Author:** ![einstein\_s\_lovechild\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e36b37/32.png) [@einstein\_s\_lovechild\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/einstein_s_lovechild_1)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001/28 "2003-11-14T05:59:09Z")
I’ve heard a lot of people here in Australia complain about the fact that we have no sense of national pride, and that this is attributable to the fact that there is no unified, identifiable Australian culture. We have those multi-culture days in primary school where you dress up in Japanese kimonos and bring sushi or whatever and they induce the typical ‘what is Australian dress/food’? Thongs and a four n twenty? I hope not. Personally I think we should learn a lot more about Koori culture in schools, instead of just ‘white Australia’ so we have more of a sense of history. But even so, many of us can’t claim Koori culture as our own. We’re a mixed bag down here (and thank god too - who wants to live off English cuisine :p) I don’t see it as a problem that we don’t have a really identifiable culture that we are proud of. There is still a lot to be quietly proud of as the OP said eg. the beautiful land. And I think part of what makes this country so great is that we are damn sceptical. We are not blindly patriotic. We are not blind to the faults of the prime-minister. Yes we’re not full of patriotic fervor, and I’m glad. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001/29 "2003-11-14T08:20:54Z")
I feel lucky to have been born British, and I feel I owe a measure of respect in return for the opportunities I’ve had. That’s as far as “patriotism” goes for me; I think I became a little cynical at university – studying nationalism – and because there are a lot of elements of “Britishness”, or maybe “Englishness”, that I’m not proud of at all. ---
**Author:** ![Dinaroozie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Dinaroozie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinaroozie)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001/30 "2003-11-14T08:35:40Z")
Hey all, first post, etc. Anyway, I agree that it’s important to differentiate between being patriotic and just liking the place… actually, I can’t back that up; for all I know, patriotism is defined as liking your homeland. [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) gives me ‘love and devotion to one’s country’, so there seems to be a bit of a difference. I think Australia is a pretty good place, all things considered. On the other hand, I can’t say I feel any sense of pride to live here, and the things usually associated with the term ‘patriotism’ tend to give me the irates (flag waving, anthems, cheering for athletes, that sort of thing). So to answer the actual question: Not very. From my experience, mostly Australians like Australia, but I’m not sure that it stretches to a love and devotion to one’s country - at least, not to such an extreme as in other places. By the way, I wouldn’t really describe our history as bloodless. I mean, wasn’t there a certain degree of… well, attempted genocide? I’m pretty sure there was, at least in Tasmania. I mean, there wasn’t a war, but that’s just because we didn’t consider the place a nation until we got here. ~ Isaac ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001/31 "2003-11-14T10:49:54Z")
Welcome to the SDMB **Dinaroozie**. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001/32 "2003-11-14T10:53:27Z")
I’m proud to be Irish, but not proud that I was born in Belfast. I support Irish rugby and football, but haven’t got a clue when it comes to GAA. I hate Celtic, but I hate Rangers equally. I wouldn’t want to have grown up anywhere else, although I might emigrate at some point. I think “my country, right or wrong” is the stupidest sentiment ever voiced. I’m glad I was born in a country full of warm, funny, generous, stubborn, sarcastic people, who know the value of eccentricity and are happy to live and let live (as long as it doesn’t involve marching). ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001/33 "2003-11-14T12:09:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jervoise \* > **• I don’t show outward signs of patriotism, but I feel a deep and abiding sense of pride and respect for Australia. I’d never say it aloud, but I love this massive, friendly, diverse, flawed, tiny, beautiful, harsh country.** I also love this part of the world. I have a particularly soft spot for what foreign eyes often percieve as ‘ugly scrub’. I don’t feel this love has anything to do with patriotism, since I love other parts of the world too, for their beauty. > [@](#): > > \*\* > • I don’t wave the flag. I don’t salute the flag (or heaven forbid, lash it to my car aerial)–but I respect the institutions and traditions it represents. I don’t _like_ the design of the flag, but seeing it flown secretly fills me with pride and a deep sense of satisfaction.\*\* The flag means absolutely nothing to me. It is a piece of cloth that doesn’t represent Australia at all. (IMO) > [@](#): > > \*\* > • I know the words to the National Anthem (even the second verse!), but unless it’s Australia Day (see below), Anzac Day – or I’m really pissed at an international sporting event – I don’t sing the song (I just mumble along with rest of the crowd). And I probably have my hand on my drink, rather than my heart.\*\* I learnt the words to the Anthem at school. I haven’t sung it since. It also means nothing to me. > [@](#): > > \*\* > • I’ve never said “God bless Australia”–or even heard someone utter those words, for that matter.\*\* Ditto. I do feel attached to this part of the world. It has nothing to do with pride, being a citizen, analysing the most advantageous place to live, etc. It has everything to do with what I am used to, what has shaped me, and where I’ve found happiness and beauty. I’ve also found happiness and beauty elsewhere, but here is where I’m most comfortable. Patriotism dumbfounds me. It’s just one of those things I’ve tried and tried to understand, but just cannot wrap my head around. Goo, A lover of Australia, but not a patriot by any stretch. ---
**Author:** ![ageless6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@ageless6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ageless6)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001/34 "2003-11-14T13:29:24Z")
I like this universe. Out of all the universes there might be,this one is elegant and mysterious and frightening and beautiful enough for me. It’s unlucky for me that I was born into such a primitive world in such a primitive time because I’d like nothing better than to have the means to sail from galaxy to galaxy,looking for other sentient life. (Cautiously). As for this insignificant pebble,with all its petty prejudices,wars,and “god’s on MY side”,and its silly boundaries that can’t even be seen from space,but only exist in the addled brains of the people inside or outside some arbitrary lines,well…I see nothing to be patriotic about. Please don’t tell me how fortunate I am in comparison to most of the planet;Iknow. And “love it or leave it” doesn’t apply here. I would leave it if I could. Change it or lose it still works,that is if we haven’t wrecked the place beyond redemption. And I wonder how long it will be before the tide completely turns,and the good patriots are over-running the borders trying to get OUT of the US. Half the time I hate being in my middle sixties,and the rest of it I’m glad I won’t be around too much longer. I foresee a shitstorm on the horizon. ---
**Author:** ![BellaDellaItalia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@BellaDellaItalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellaDellaItalia)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001/35 "2003-11-14T18:44:15Z")
I used to be pretty unpariotic but since 9-11 I’ve gotten more into it. ---
**Author:** ![Tuco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tuco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuco)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001/36 "2003-11-15T13:06:14Z")
Being English it’s getting harder and harder to be patriotic; if I start waving the flag of St George I’ll probably be accused of being a xenophobic, war-loving nazi. Being proud to be British isn’t great as I’ll get accused of being impeialistic and old fashioned. I don’t dare tell people I’m with I’m proud of the monarchy any more; I’ll get lumpd into the ’ you’re for fox hunting and going to war with everyone’ brigade. A lot of English people are very patriotic, it’s just we’re too scared to show it. ---
**Author:** ![sirtonyh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@sirtonyh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sirtonyh)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001/37 "2003-11-15T15:36:52Z")
Not patriotic at all, in fact I’m seriously anti-patriotism and even more seriously anti-nationalism. Whether you live in a country which has something worth celebrating or not, partiotism, and even more so nationalism, doesn’t ever seem to generate any positive feelings. Those being overtly patriotic often look down on the achievements of others and those being looked down on resent it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-patriotic-are-you-particularly-antipodean-and-euro-dopers/213001.md?page=1)