# How perception of Christian persecution in America could become self-fulfilling **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2021, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540 "2021-01-02T20:43:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/1 "2021-01-02T20:43:56Z")
Not sure if this is GD or Politics, so I’ll let the admins sort that: **TL;DR at the beginning - by believing they are persecuted, American Christians could annoy people _into_ persecuting them, thus causing a vicious cycle.** IMHO, one big reason Trump was elected in 2016 was because many white evangelicals felt persecuted in America. (Note - whether such persecution actually existed or not is beside the point; all that matters is they _ **felt** _ they were.) But by electing Trump, however, American Christians caused the perception of Christianity to worsen, since they had now tied their identity to a narcissistic, foolish blowhard. This then led to increasingly negative views of Christianity and contributed to Christianity’s decline. But the more American Christians claim they are persecuted, the greater the likelihood that they will annoy other people around them, to the point where people _will_, in fact, persecute them. Once that happens, it will kick off a vicious loop: If people do get annoyed into persecuting Christians, it will then lend legitimacy to such claims (“we’re persecuted”) which will then make American Christians all the more prone to electing Trump-like candidates and broadcasting a message of persecution victimhood, which will then further aggravate non-Christians and make them hate Christianity all the more, which will then make the persecution claim all the more legit. It will become a self-fulfilling cycle - Christians claiming persecution will create a negative view of Christianity, which then leads to hostility against Christianity, which then feeds a sense of persecution, and it will only spiral further. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/2 "2021-01-02T21:10:16Z")
In what way do they feel persecuted? ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/3 "2021-01-02T21:57:29Z")
Interesting combination of wishful thinking (so thirsty for that martyrdom) and blaming the victims of previous real persecution. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/4 "2021-01-02T22:13:18Z")
_Some_ Christians feel that anti-discrimination laws, affecting their businesses and schools, are a form of persecution. (I wish “some” were a weak, even meaningless word here, just as “some” people believe that lizard aliens have infiltrated our government. But, alas, the “some” above is a large enough minority to have had relevance in the Supreme Court.) Yes, “You’re not letting me be free to deny freedom to others” is a weird cry, but it’s one we see seriously offered. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/5 "2021-01-02T22:26:43Z")
First, let’s not describe the frankly wacky fundamentalist/conservative denominations as representing all of Christianity. It’s only the Baptists and evangelicals that **already** perceive themselves as persecuted and discriminated against. The rest- Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, etc… don’t necessarily feel that way. But we’re not generally flaming assholes, ignorant, or obnoxiously outspoken about our faith, so we tend to get overlooked. Second, that fundamentalist crowd has felt persecuted/aggrieved for a LONG time now. In essence, they perceive anything that restricts their ability to do literally anything religious anywhere and any time they desire as religious persecution. A lot of it seems to be garden variety small-mindedness. By that I mean that they don’t really understand that our nation is NOT a “Christian nation”, and that just because nobody in their extended circle/podunk town of 1000, or whatever expressly identifies as non-Christian, it doesn’t also follow that everyone IS Christian. Or that it’s a good thing that laws that protect say… Muslims in Michigan are also applicable in Hicksville, WY. They just can’t wrap their head around the idea that because “everyone’s Christian” that they can’t do what they want. There’s also a big component of theological ignorance of how an _actual_ Christian might be expected to behave if confronted with people of other faiths or in the face of that sort of persecution of others. It’s NOT being hateful and wanting to implement a theocracy of some sort, FWIW. I think Trump is a symptom of that, not a cause. He basically took up (or was perceived to have taken up) that fight on their behalf, so they love him for it, and everything he’s done to screw over Muslims or other non-Americans/non-Christians is proof of it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/6 "2021-01-02T22:42:01Z")
Christians are being persecuted. Does nobody else remember federal forces tear-gassing a church? But the people doing the persecution are mostly the ones complaining. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/7 "2021-01-02T22:45:06Z")
I don’t think it would be as simple as “being so annoying that they’re persecuted”. I think it would involve fundists running afoul of laws disproportionate to their population, from big laws like violence to smaller ones like trespassing, public assembly, and stalking. Which isn’t to say that annoyance to law enforcement couldn’t be a factor in who gets treated lightly. And it’s not without precedent, since some early Christian martyrs had to practically beg to be crucified when Rome wasn’t feeling in a persecutin’ mood. One group showed up at the governor’s house and begged to be martyred and was annoying enough that he said “okay, okay, I’ll kill 3 of you but the rest of you just go away!” ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/8 "2021-01-02T22:58:11Z")
I think it’s important to define what “persecution” means to these Christians. The main ones I hear about are the “War on Christmas” and the “War of Family Values”. The first one is really related to the application of the “separation of church and state” as stated in the First Amendment. And it is usually manifested as complaints about not being allowed to pray or teach religious dogma in public schools. Maybe also businesses steering away from specifically Christmas-based marketing imagery around December. The second topic tends to be resistance to increased rights and tolerance for members of the LGBTQ community. As if that somehow lessens or invalidates the traditional “married man and woman and their children” family unit. To me, it seems less about being “persecuted” as it is no longer enjoying a position of exceptionalism in an increasingly diverse nation that was built on a fundamental concept of secularism. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/9 "2021-01-02T23:21:08Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But the more American Christians claim they are persecuted, the greater the likelihood that they will annoy other people around them, to the point where people _will_ , in fact, persecute them. Perhaps it’s my own ignorance at work, but I don’t see Black or Latin or Korean or other Christians wallowing in claims of persecution. The ones doing that are mainly the white evangelicals and to some extent white Catholics. In that light it could be argued that the claims of religious persecution are in fact inseparable from claims of racial persecution. A feature of racial violence in America is that it’s often driven by claims of imaginary violence and aggression, so that their violence may be characterised as self-defense rather than racial repression. In other words, projection is nothing new. That’s one way that this may be a consciously self-fulfilling prophecy. Another way is religious millenarianism, in which Jesus is expected to return to earth to smite the evil and save the good, but this can only happen once a period of upheaval and persecution occurs. There are different flavors of that belief, but in essence the realization of biblical prophecy depends first on Christians being prosecuted. So in that light, they have an enormous incentive to anticipate persecution, and that incentive itself becomes a motivation to act in ways that cause persecution. So in short, I agree it’s a self-fulfilling cycle, but not because they’re going to accidentally annoy anyone. They expect to be persecuted, they have a psychological/religious need to be persecuted, so they’re motivated to see themselves as persecuted (and help the process along if possible). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/10 "2021-01-02T23:31:35Z")
By “American Christians”, I assume you mean “most white evangelical conservatives but few others”, which doesn’t nearly encompass American Christians, right? That’s the only way the original post would remotely make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/11 "2021-01-02T23:40:25Z")
By and large, yes. But this notion that Christians in America face persecution doesn’t seem to be isolated to white evangelicals alone, although they do comprise the bulk of it. Some others have that notion too. But - the overall idea is - if a group anticipates - even in a sense _wants_ - persecution, that tends to invite it. Because it can be very annoying, and then leads other people to be like, “If you think you’re persecuted now, I’ll show you what REAL persecution looks like” and then that kicks off the whole self-reinforcing loop. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/12 "2021-01-03T00:05:09Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But - the overall idea is - if a group anticipates - even in a sense _wants_ - persecution, that tends to invite it. Because it can be very annoying, and then leads other people to be like, “If you think you’re persecuted now, I’ll show you what REAL persecution looks like” and then that kicks off the whole self-reinforcing loop. I agree it’s a self-perpetuating cycle but it’s nothing to do with “I’ll show you what persecution looks like.” That’s never been a factor and is never going to be a factor. People who feel that they’re being persecuted feel justified in counter-persecuting others. And for people in a position of social dominance, any imposition of equality or justice for others, feels like persecution to them. It’s not about annoyance. It’s about a historical pattern of demonstrable harm from Christians as the dominant group, and that group is giving every sign they’d like to continue being dominant by any means necessary. So for the foreseeable future, we’re going to be stuck with this cycle of zealots losing a little power, claiming that they’re being persecuted, which justifies an aggressive backlash on their part, which justifies an aggressive backlash from everyone else, which endlessly feeds into a persecution fantasy. It’ll never stop until they understand they’re no more superior or entitled than anyone else, at least regarding earthly matters. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/13 "2021-01-03T00:44:57Z")
But this isn’t anything new. This is the same “woe is me” faux persecution that white southerners used to rationalize Jim Crow. It’s just been slightly modified. This is why recognizing the facts of history, and most significantly in this case, recognizing the special immorality of the Confederacy, Antebellum southern culture, Jim Crow, and the like, is so important. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/14 "2021-01-03T01:59:23Z")
^This The persecution fantasy is age old, and maybe has always been a part of American Christianity. The OP’s speculation that this will result in actual persecution against that group can be seen to be flat out wrong. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/15 "2021-01-03T02:24:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But this isn’t anything new. This is the same “woe is me” faux persecution that white southerners used to rationalize Jim Crow. It’s just been slightly modified. The belief isn’t new, but neither is the loop. And since the loop escalates, I think it works. I mean, racism is bad, but that was attacking “them others who aren’t like us.” Anti-masking and Trump support, both common among these types of Christians, are very clearly attacking themselves. All because they want to hurt those “atheist” liberals. They’ve stopped trying to square the circle of how to adhere to Christian principles while ignoring them for certain people. It really just seems like they don’t matter anymore. Heck, if anything, the racism is actually better than it was in decades past, even if it did hit another local maximum. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/16 "2021-01-03T02:24:36Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The OP’s speculation that this will result in actual persecution against that group can be seen to be flat out wrong. Actual persecution? Probably not. The American Christian definition of “persecution”, which boils down to standing in their way? That is going to get much worse. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/17 "2021-01-03T16:43:51Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Yes, “You’re not letting me be free to deny freedom to others” is a weird cry, but it’s one we see seriously offered Not all that weird - it was, after all, basically the cry of the Pilgrims when they fled England for “religious persecution”. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/18 "2021-01-03T17:01:33Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I don’t think it would be as simple as “being so annoying that they’re persecuted”. I think it would involve fundists running afoul of laws disproportionate to their population, from big laws like violence to smaller ones like trespassing, public assembly, and stalking. > > Which isn’t to say that annoyance to law enforcement couldn’t be a factor in who gets treated lightly. And it’s not without precedent, since some early Christian martyrs had to practically beg to be crucified when Rome wasn’t feeling in a persecutin’ mood. **One group showed up at the governor’s house and begged to be martyred and was annoying enough that he said "okay, okay, I’ll kill 3 of you but the rest of you just go away!”** That’s a delightful anecdote, and I would absolutely LOVE to see a source for it. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/19 "2021-01-03T17:22:56Z")
[In the Nero to Decius period on wikipedia:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#From_Nero_to_Decius) > [@](#): > > Some early Christians sought out and welcomed martyrdom. Roman authorities tried hard to avoid Christians because they “goaded, chided, belittled and insulted the crowds until they demanded their death.” > > According to Droge and Tabor, “in 185 the proconsul of Asia, Arrius Antoninus, was approached by a group of Christians demanding to be executed. The proconsul obliged some of them and then sent the rest away, saying that if they wanted to kill themselves there was plenty of rope available or cliffs they could jump off.” (That first paragraph is in the larger context of persecution since of course not all periods were as forgiving). ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540/20 "2021-01-03T17:57:08Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The persecution fantasy is age old, and maybe has always been a part of American Christianity. Yes, there has always been that element in the culture – a sense of being the ones put-upon and on the defensive against the forces of decadence. And rather than provoking “real persecution” backlash, I believe they will simply just keep saying that every motion in a secular-progressive direction or every sign of deprivileging is an even worse assault, and keep moving the goalposts further in. So eventually even saying to a sneezing person “Gesundheit” or just “Bless You” instead of specifically “ **God** Bless You” will be a sign of how organized antichristian sentiment is taking over society. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-perception-of-christian-persecution-in-america-could-become-self-fulfilling/929540.md?page=2)