# How physically fit were soldiers in the past compared to today? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 5, 2012, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-physically-fit-were-soldiers-in-the-past-compared-to-today/636802 "2012-10-05T13:35:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-physically-fit-were-soldiers-in-the-past-compared-to-today/636802/41 "2012-10-06T10:05:30Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > But even then, malnutrition and disease has historically killed more soldiers than actual combat. This is important; however “tough” they may have been, a soldier in the past is far more likely at any given time to have been seriously ill or recovering from serious illness than a modern one. Some guy half dead from dysentery isn’t going to be very fit at all. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-physically-fit-were-soldiers-in-the-past-compared-to-today/636802/42 "2012-10-06T12:53:44Z")
I would like to state for the record that some of us are pudgy despite having to do regular PT. I joke that my potbelly is an “Extended Performance Fuel Tank”, given that I can run 4 miles without any problem more severe than boredom. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-physically-fit-were-soldiers-in-the-past-compared-to-today/636802/43 "2012-10-06T13:35:58Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > I don’t remember which actor it was from ‘Band of Brothers’, but I saw a picture of him standing next to the man he portrayed in the show. Granted, the gentleman was old and probably not as tall as he once was, but there was a _huge_ difference in stature. > > Physiques like David Schwimmer’s at that time would probably have been considered huge. > Edit: Goddamn, BoB was good. Haven’t thought about it for a long time. Gonna have to watch it again this winter. I think you mean Babe Heffron and the actor Robin Laing. Robin Laing is over 6 feet and I think Babe Heffron is 5-3. But Heffron was able to lug a .30 cal machine gun halfway across Europe. Schwimmer played Captain Sobel. Sobel could run forever and could run the men into the ground. But he wasn’t very strong. He barely passed the pushups to get through Airborne. The troops were hoping he failed. Some of the original guys were pretty big. Bull Randleman got his name for a reason. Buck Compton was a catcher for UCLA and also a football player there. He looks like a pretty big guy in his [picture](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Compton). Yes I’m a Band of Brothers fanatic. ---
**Author:** ![Vaevictis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f04885/32.png) [@Vaevictis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vaevictis)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-physically-fit-were-soldiers-in-the-past-compared-to-today/636802/44 "2012-10-06T14:54:47Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > This is wrong. There were millions of poor but armies were small in almost all western nations. Between Napoleon and WWI, Europe was almost entirely at peace at home (the Franco-Prussian War being an exception). Standing armies were small, and mostly needed for colonial supremacy. Some did institute universal military service, but except for Russia, terms were short and service not greatly onerous. Prussia was a tiny country in 1839 and stayed small until the unification of Germany. > > In short, the military didn’t need to change the entire social structure of their countries to create cogs in the military machine. There wasn’t a military machine in the 19th century. What are the numbers? Off the cuff I have a memory of Keegan’s ‘History of Warfare’ depicting 19th century Europe as an armed camp even though there was very little fighting. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-physically-fit-were-soldiers-in-the-past-compared-to-today/636802/45 "2012-10-07T01:57:58Z")
> [@Animastryfe](#): > > Why was this? They were richer, much richer, and had a far more varied and nutritious diet. We take it for granted that today there isn’t really a lot of difference in the quality of life between America and Western Europe, but back then there was an absolutely enormous difference. There’s a reason people were flooding across the ocean. It is interesting to note that the first European settlers said the same thing about Native Americans; their physical robustness and health was a marvel to Europeans. The Indians were eating better. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-physically-fit-were-soldiers-in-the-past-compared-to-today/636802/46 "2012-10-08T07:31:01Z")
Modern soldiers are in much better shape than most soldiers from the past. They have better nutrition and access to better health care from birth. In the US, we’ve had a regression in stature and overall health due to crappier nutrition from processed “food” products instead of actual food, and spotty health care. Two-hundred years ago, North Americans were notably taller than the European populations they came from. Now, the average heigh is trending down even as the obesity rate is trending up. In contrast, pre-WWII, the Dutch used to be the shortest people in Europe. Now, due to universal health care and a good standard of living, they have probably the highest average height of any industrialized nation. The toughness that people noted is not physical toughness. Physically, modern people are just as tough, if not tougher, than people from the past. We’re not, as a rule, inured to hardship anymore, though. Most active military become hardened to dealing with harsh conditions through experience, and special forces members are specifically selected for their ability to adapt to extreme conditions. I’ve heard from many people in the military, particularly those who run training and selection for BUDs and other special forces programs, that mental toughness is just as important as physical toughness. There are supreme physical specimens who ring the bell or pull up injured in the first couple of weeks. These tend to be the “gazelles,” guys who are used to breezing through most physical tests without an enormous amount of effort. The grunts, who work their asses off and just keep going, no matter what, are the ones who almost always make it through Hell Week. Mental toughness can be trained, and people who have had to live under harsh conditions for most of their lives are already pre-hardened, as it were. But, that mental toughness doesn’t necessarily provide an unassailable advantage when it comes to performing tough physical tasks. If you’re in great physical shape, and you’re mentally tough, you’ll obviously have the potential to outperform someone who isn’t physically as prepared. An average modern soldier is physically more prepared, and unquestionably better trained, but slightly less mentally prepared to deal with harsh conditions than soldiers in the past. That slight difference is probably quickly remedied with a little experience in the field. Special forces personnel are put through a much more stringent selection process than probably any military in history and are trained to deal with conditions that are extremely harsh. These selection programs typically have a 10% pass rate, or lower. They are not necessarily the biggest or strongest men — though some are pretty big guys — but they are universally insanely tough, or they wouldn’t have made it through. ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-physically-fit-were-soldiers-in-the-past-compared-to-today/636802/47 "2012-10-08T09:54:39Z")
> [@Sleel](#): > > Special forces personnel are put through a much more stringent selection process than probably any military in history and are trained to deal with conditions that are extremely harsh. These selection programs typically have a 10% pass rate, or lower. They are not necessarily the biggest or strongest men — Agreed from what little I know. American special forces such as Delta and Seals work on building body mass using weight-lifting and gym apparatus. By contrast the SAS concentrate on endurance. The result is American special force soldiers are solid muscular and intimidating men, but they are large and there is a physical cost with moving around for days on end. The SAS guys are thin and wiry, not particularly noticeable, but they can walk over mountains and through deserts day after day. Each physique has its place. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-physically-fit-were-soldiers-in-the-past-compared-to-today/636802/48 "2012-10-08T16:34:27Z")
> [@Sleel](#): > > Modern soldiers are in much better shape than most soldiers from the past. They have better nutrition and access to better health care from birth. In the US, we’ve had a regression in stature and overall health due to crappier nutrition from processed “food” products instead of actual food, and spotty health care. Two-hundred years ago, North Americans were notably taller than the European populations they came from. Now, the average heigh is trending down even as the obesity rate is trending up. Do you have a cite for the claim the U.S. populace is trending downwards due to processed foods and a lack of universal health care? (Since the U.S. never had universal health care before, that would be a strange reason for a sudden reversal.) ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-physically-fit-were-soldiers-in-the-past-compared-to-today/636802/49 "2012-10-08T18:51:23Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > Agreed from what little I know. > > American special forces such as Delta and Seals work on building body mass using weight-lifting and gym apparatus. By contrast the SAS concentrate on endurance. The result is American special force soldiers are solid muscular and intimidating men, but they are large and there is a physical cost with moving around for days on end. The SAS guys are thin and wiry, not particularly noticeable, but they can walk over mountains and through deserts day after day. > > Each physique has its place. Not sure where you got that from, but I disagree. There are muscleheads in every group, but your typical US SPECWAR soldier tends to be just as wiry and endurance-built as any other: [Delta](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Delta_force_GIs_disguised_as_Afghan_civilians,_November_2001_C.jpg) [SEALs](http://www.brainathlete.com/wp-content/gallery/trainlikenavyseal/navy-seal-11-100.jpg) [Rangers](http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/6388/clarksonu.jpg) These are not typically buff guys. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-physically-fit-were-soldiers-in-the-past-compared-to-today/636802/50 "2012-10-08T19:01:02Z")
> [@Sleel](#): > > The toughness that people noted is not physical toughness. Physically, modern people are just as tough, if not tougher, than people from the past. We’re not, as a rule, inured to hardship anymore, though. Most active military become hardened to dealing with harsh conditions through experience, and special forces members are specifically selected for their ability to adapt to extreme conditions. > . There’s a story I’ve heard about an Israeli army special forces selection trial: a foreign observer was hanging out with the testing officer, watching young recruits run around carrying heavy objects. One of them, a small, out-of-shape guy, was constantly pushing himself harder and harder, always staying with the pack and urging on the other troops, until he finally collapsed from exhaustion. The observer remarked something about the kid being a washout, but the officer replied that in fact, he was probably going to pass him. He explained that they could always whip a soldier into physical shape, but the ability to push themselves past their limits, \*that \*they had to start out with. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-physically-fit-were-soldiers-in-the-past-compared-to-today/636802/51 "2012-10-08T19:16:25Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > There’s a story I’ve heard about an Israeli army special forces selection trial: a foreign observer was hanging out with the testing officer, watching young recruits run around carrying heavy objects. One of them, a small, out-of-shape guy, was constantly pushing himself harder and harder, always staying with the pack and urging on the other troops, until he finally collapsed from exhaustion. The observer remarked something about the kid being a washout, but the officer replied that in fact, he was probably going to pass him. He explained that they could always whip a soldier into physical shape, but the ability to push themselves past their limits, \*that \*they had to start out with. My father who otherwise is a big believer in metal toughness beating out physical shape, told me that in Siachen (high altitude warfare) he saw an aversion, there were some soldiers who despite being as mentally tough as possible could not withstand the physical requirements despite their best efforts. But then just to serve at posts at altitudes of 22,0000 feet and above requires great mental strength. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-physically-fit-were-soldiers-in-the-past-compared-to-today/636802/52 "2012-10-09T05:38:44Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Do you have a cite for the claim the U.S. populace is trending downwards due to processed foods and a lack of universal health care? (Since the U.S. never had universal health care before, that would be a strange reason for a sudden reversal.) [THE HEIGHT GAP: Why Europeans are getting taller and taller-and Americans aren’t.](http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/04/05/040405fa_fact) The US never had universal health care, but access to health care was more equitable in the past. Growing income inequality and more difficult and more uneven access to health care has had an impact. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-physically-fit-were-soldiers-in-the-past-compared-to-today/636802/53 "2012-10-09T12:55:19Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > William L. Shirer, when discussing Hitler Youth and other related Nazi programs: > > Of course, that was his anecdotal observation, and I’d think many newly captured POW’s would appear to have “round shoulders”. I don’t know whether the statistics actually bear him out on this point. I can’t remember the author but I remember reading a book by a (IIRC British) writer who similarly commented on how during the march into Germany in 1945 he was struck by the proportion of tall, well-developed german youths with good teeth who were either lying dead by the side of the road or being marched into captivity by runty snaggle-toothed tommy mongrels. So it was by no means a unique observation. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-physically-fit-were-soldiers-in-the-past-compared-to-today/636802/54 "2012-10-09T13:01:41Z")
> [@](#): > > He had not been long there before two men dressed in blue fixed their eyes steadfastly upon him. > “Faith, comrade,” said one of them to the other, “yonder is a well made young fellow and of the right size.” Upon which they made up to Candide and with the greatest civility and politeness invited him to dine with them. > “Gentlemen,” replied Candide, with a most engaging modesty, you do me much honor, but upon my word I have no money." > “Money, sir!” said one of the blues to him, “young persons of your appearance and merit never pay anything; why, are not you five feet five inches high?” > “Yes, gentlemen, that is really my size,” replied he, with a low bow. > … > “Bravo!” cried the blues; “you are now the support, the defender, the hero of the Bulgarians; your fortune is made; you are in the high road to glory.” > So saying, they handcuffed him, and carried him away to the regiment. _Candide_, Voltaire ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-physically-fit-were-soldiers-in-the-past-compared-to-today/636802/55 "2012-10-09T13:22:13Z")
> [@slaphead](#): > > I can’t remember the author but I remember reading a book by a (IIRC British) writer who similarly commented on how during the march into Germany in 1945 he was struck by the proportion of tall, well-developed german youths with good teeth who were either lying dead by the side of the road or being marched into captivity by runty snaggle-toothed tommy mongrels. So it was by no means a unique observation. That may have to do with the fact that universal health care was introduced in Germany as early as the 1880s. The standard certainly wasn’t as high from the start as it is today, but still. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-physically-fit-were-soldiers-in-the-past-compared-to-today/636802.md?page=2)