# How Prevalent is the Rev. Wright's stance amongst African Americans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494 "2008-03-15T21:56:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/41 "2008-03-17T01:36:44Z")
Black people know many of their kids will wind up in jail. They know whites use drugs as much as blacks but many more blacks will be prosecuted and get longer sentences. They are aware that their life expectancy is shorter. They are aware their medical coverage is inferior. They know many hate them for their skin color. They know their opportunities in life are abridged. It has gone on for so long it can not be an accident.So it is an easy step to think that powerful people want it that way. ---
**Author:** ![Anomalous\_Reading](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Anomalous\_Reading](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anomalous_Reading)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/42 "2008-03-17T01:40:45Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Cite? [/QUOTE] [This video](http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4223) hits the points… and shows the sermon in entirety. If you want to cut straight to the point… go to about 10:30 on the vid. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/43 "2008-03-17T01:54:38Z")
[QUOTE=Anomalous Reading] [This video](http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4223) hits the points… and shows the sermon in entirety. If you want to cut straight to the point… go to about 10:30 on the vid. [/QUOTE] Thanks. I appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Anomalous\_Reading](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Anomalous\_Reading](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anomalous_Reading)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/44 "2008-03-17T02:00:56Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Thanks. I appreciate it. [/QUOTE] Not a problem. Always happy to help. Y’know… I might be atheist. But I love this sermon… it’s honest, sure… it’s at times political, but… he’s honest. There are more calls to change (the black community) than the one I pointed you to, but it’s the best one. It is, after all, a sermon. It’s supposed to be truth with a call to action and change. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/45 "2008-03-17T08:23:36Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I imagine this kind of rabid anti-Americanism is more common among leftists in general. [/QUOTE] Based on what? How do you even define anti-Americanism? Traditionally, criticizing one’s country, with the hopes that it will make us better, used to be considered patriotic. You know, eternal vigilance being the price of freedom type of thing. Now, that is not the case. Either way, if you define anti-Americanism in a way that equates honest, reasoned dissent with being unpatriotic, you completely devalue the term and allow it to be divorced from is historical definition. At that point, it’s meaningless to draw arbitrary lines defining who is, and who isn’t anti-American. Furthermore, Americanism, is a concept far more important to Whites than it is to Blacks. It’s much higher in most White’s identity ladder. Most Blacks view themselves as Black before they view themselves as Americans. I think it’s the opposite of most Whites. Blackness is still a necessary (but incomplete) resource for most of us. It informs who we are, where we live, how we live, and how we are viewed. Whiteness means nothing to most White people. You need to appreciate that discrepancy when you discuss these things. [QUOTE=Shodan] I did some quick Googling, and conspiracy theories seem to appear among blacks with unnerving frequency - [concerning birth control, for instance,](http://hbns.org/getDocument.cfm?documentID=1108) [/QUOTE] Ok, so the broad theory is basically that the gov’t/doctors/powers that be use birth control for nefarious purposes, many of which specifically target Blacks. Form your site: > [@](#): > > In a recent survey of 500 black Americans, only half believed that the government tells the truth about the safety and side effects of new birth control methods. > > One-third of participants of the telephone survey said that medical institutions use poor and minority people as “guinea pigs” to try out new birth control methods, according to study authors Sheryl Thorburn of Oregon State University and Laura Bogart of the Rand Corporation. > > Substantial numbers of those surveyed also believed that the government uses birth control as a way to control the black population in America. Almost a quarter of those surveyed agreed that “poor and minority women are sometimes forced to be sterilized by the government,” while 22 percent agreed that “the government’s family planning policies are intended to control the number of Black people.” So let’s go through these one at a time. Have medical institutions used the poor and minorities as guinea pigs to try out birth control methods in recent history. [Yes](http://rffm.typepad.com/republicans_for_fair_medi/2008/02/thousands-of-bl.html) . This is a provable fact. Did the government use BC to control the Black population? Again, factually accurate. Has the government involuntarily sterilized minorities? [Yes](http://www.stopvaw.org/printview/History_of_Involuntary_Sterilization_in_the_United_States.html) . Do the government’s planning policies intend to control the number of Black people? Again, this is true (depending on how it’s defined). Even your own site says the following: > [@](#): > > “Conspiracy beliefs do not occur in a vacuum,” Thorburn says. “The United States has a long history of efforts to control the fertility of African- American women.” She says that such efforts range from slavery to coercive sterilization programs as recent as the 1970s. AS RECENT AS THE 1970’s! It is not alarming that people may mistakenly feel these things are still going on, failing to take advantage of modern medicine; the alarming part is that this shit actually happened. People actively conspired to make this happen as recently as the 19 fucking 70’s. And you have the gall to chastise Blacks for believing. [QUOTE=Shodan] or [concerning AIDS](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33695-2005Jan24.html) [/QUOTE] Again, while the theories may be factually inaccurate, I don’t understand why you are surprised by these findings. The history of HIV is rife with bias, ignorance, and despicable acts that cost thousands of people their lives. The [Reagan](http://www.gmhc.org/about/timeline.html) administration urged the public not to panic since AIDS is confined to gay men and IV drug users. The president was basically telling people not to panic because the only people being devastated by the disease are people nobody cares about. Do you see how others in marginalized groups could assume there is a similar lack of concern for them? If HIV had stayed confined to the gay community and drug users, how much money do you think the government would dedicate to research? The other “troubling” stat in your cite is that many believe that there is a cure for AIDS that is being withheld from poor people. This is not crazy at all. In fact, it is debatable. [Protease Inhibitors](http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bl_protease_inhibitors.htm) and other drug therapies have become more and more effective in lowering viral load and prevent HIV from progressing to AIDS. Many wealthy HIV patients today will live long enough to die from heart disease like the rest of us. You know who is not getting those drugs? Poor people. Many of them will be lucky to die on a mattress. Is it really a stretch for someone to argue that these “cures” are being withheld from poor people? Especially, since many treatments are withheld from poor people. Sometimes they are “withheld” because they are considered “experimental” by insurance companies, or because nobody gives a damn about providing said things to people who can’t pay for them. Read a little about GATS/TRIPS agreements and HIV drugs in Africa. Hell, simple treatments like mosquito nets are “withheld” from millions of Africans who end up dying from form Malaria. It kills one million children per year. A mosquito net, a simple thing that is plentiful, but nearly impossible for many who need it to procure. The reality there are many solutions to problems that are withheld from people for one reason or another. This may not technically be the case with AIDS, I don’t think people who believe it is are crazy. [QUOTE=Shodan] and [Hurricane Katrina](http://www.mrc.org/cyberalerts/2006/cyb20060831.asp#2). Another situation where actual racism and ineptitude inspires people to engage in unfounded speculation. Actual events like the bridge [blockade](http://blog.nola.com/times-picayune/2007/09/bridge_blockade_after_katrina.html) make it easier for some people to believe people might go one step further. Sure, those people may be wrong, but they delving into terrain that often requires a lot of guesswork and assumptions. Mistakes will happen. It’s not as though people who have actually engaged in terrible things like what is alleged will admit it. [QUOTE=Shodan] And the drug conspiracy thing seems to have started with the _San Jose Mercury News_ ([cite](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/special/cia.html) ). [/QUOTE] Well to be fair, the drug thing started with the government turning a blind eye to drug trafficking, getting involved with drug traffickers, and not addressing the fallout. As the [PBS](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/forum/october96/crack_contra_11-1.html) report on the initial claims stated: > [@](#): > > A 1989 Senate Foreign Relations Committee report that looked into this issue also stopped just short of implicating the CIA. It stated, “There are some serious questions as to whether or not U.S. officials involved in Central America failed to address the drug issue for fear of jeopardizing the war effort against Nicaragua.” > > Senator John Kerry (D-MA), Chairman of that sub-Committee, had this to say about the recent allegations raised by Mr. Webb and others, “ **There is no question in my mind that people affiliated with, or on the payroll of the CIA were involved in drug trafficking while involved in support of the Contras, but it is also important to note that we never found any evidence to suggest that these traffickers ever targeted any one geographic area or population group.** ” So the CIA was, at the very least, aiding an abetting the sale of drugs in this country. The drugs were sold to Black gangs who sell to Black people. Don’t you think factual evidence that is available to us precludes this from being just another crackpot theory? This s really a question of aims and motives. The believers may assume sinister motives where ignorance or indifference is a better fit, but they are operating from a perspective, which historically speaking, equates this selective ignorance/indifference with malevolence. Many times, the reasons for one’s ignorance or indifferent are rooted in the same pernicious racism. [QUOTE=Shodan] As to why, I would guess that a conspiracy theory is more comforting to those see themselves as losers than anything more clear-headed. [/QUOTE] WFT? This makes no sense to me. These theories are “comforting” to the extent they are because they allow one to whittle a complex situation to something digestible. They give order to chaos. It’s the same reason people believe in religion or government. Is the conspiracy theory that the gov’t blew up a levee more absurd than the conspiracy theory that the Jews and Romans conspired to kill the son of God? It’s much easier to think there is someone behind everything controlling outcomes than just a infinite regression of small decisions and changes that have unforeseen and tragically consequential effects. It’s part of the human condition. It’s not unique to Blacks, and it doesn’t mean you are a loser. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/46 "2008-03-17T08:29:12Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I imagine this kind of rabid anti-Americanism is more common among leftists in general. [/QUOTE] Based on what? How do you even define anti-Americanism? Traditionally, criticizing one’s country, with the hopes that it will make us better, used to be considered patriotic. You know, eternal vigilance being the price of freedom type of thing. Now, that is not the case. Either way, if you define anti-Americanism in a way that equates honest, reasoned dissent with being unpatriotic, you completely devalue the term and allow it to be divorced from is historical definition. At that point, it’s meaningless to draw arbitrary lines defining who is, and who isn’t anti-American. Furthermore, Americanism, is a concept far more important to Whites than it is to Blacks. It’s much higher in most White’s identity ladder. Most Blacks view themselves as Black before they view themselves as Americans. I think it’s the opposite of most Whites. Blackness is still a necessary (but incomplete) resource for most of us. It informs who we are, where we live, how we live, and how we are viewed. Whiteness means nothing to most White people. You need to appreciate that discrepancy when you discuss these things. [QUOTE=Shodan] I did some quick Googling, and conspiracy theories seem to appear among blacks with unnerving frequency - [concerning birth control, for instance,](http://hbns.org/getDocument.cfm?documentID=1108) [/QUOTE] Ok, so the broad theory is basically that the gov’t/doctors/powers that be use birth control for nefarious purposes, many of which specifically target Blacks. Form your site: > [@](#): > > In a recent survey of 500 black Americans, only half believed that the government tells the truth about the safety and side effects of new birth control methods. > > One-third of participants of the telephone survey said that medical institutions use poor and minority people as “guinea pigs” to try out new birth control methods, according to study authors Sheryl Thorburn of Oregon State University and Laura Bogart of the Rand Corporation. > > Substantial numbers of those surveyed also believed that the government uses birth control as a way to control the black population in America. Almost a quarter of those surveyed agreed that “poor and minority women are sometimes forced to be sterilized by the government,” while 22 percent agreed that “the government’s family planning policies are intended to control the number of Black people.” So let’s go through these one at a time. Have medical institutions used the poor and minorities as guinea pigs to try out birth control methods in recent history. [Yes](http://rffm.typepad.com/republicans_for_fair_medi/2008/02/thousands-of-bl.html) . This is a provable fact. Did the government use BC to control the Black population? Again, factually accurate. Has the government involuntarily sterilized minorities? [Yes](http://www.stopvaw.org/printview/History_of_Involuntary_Sterilization_in_the_United_States.html) . Do the government’s planning policies intend to control the number of Black people? Again, this is true (depending on how it’s defined). Even your own site says the following: > [@](#): > > “Conspiracy beliefs do not occur in a vacuum,” Thorburn says. “The United States has a long history of efforts to control the fertility of African- American women.” She says that such efforts range from slavery to coercive sterilization programs as recent as the 1970s. AS RECENT AS THE 1970’s! It is not alarming that people may mistakenly feel these things are still going on, failing to take advantage of modern medicine; the alarming part is that this shit actually happened. People actively conspired to make this happen as recently as the 19 fucking 70’s. And you have the gall to chastise Blacks for believing. [QUOTE=Shodan] or [concerning AIDS](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33695-2005Jan24.html) [/QUOTE] Again, while the theories may be factually inaccurate, I don’t understand why you are surprised by these findings. The history of HIV is rife with bias, ignorance, and despicable acts that cost thousands of people their lives. The [Reagan](http://www.gmhc.org/about/timeline.html) administration urged the public not to panic since AIDS is confined to gay men and IV drug users. The president was basically telling people not to panic because the only people being devastated by the disease are people nobody cares about. Do you see how others in marginalized groups could assume there is a similar lack of concern for them? If HIV had stayed confined to the gay community and drug users, how much money do you think the government would dedicate to research? The other “troubling” stat in your cite is that many believe that there is a cure for AIDS that is being withheld from poor people. This is not crazy at all. In fact, it is debatable. [Protease Inhibitors](http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bl_protease_inhibitors.htm) and other drug therapies have become more and more effective in lowering viral load and prevent HIV from progressing to AIDS. Many wealthy HIV patients today will live long enough to die from heart disease like the rest of us. You know who is not getting those drugs? Poor people. Many of them will be lucky to die on a mattress. Is it really a stretch for someone to argue that these “cures” are being withheld from poor people? Especially, since many treatments are withheld from poor people. Sometimes they are “withheld” because they are considered “experimental” by insurance companies, or because nobody gives a damn about providing said things to people who can’t pay for them. Read a little about GATS/TRIPS agreements and HIV drugs in Africa. Hell, simple treatments like mosquito nets are “withheld” from millions of Africans who end up dying from form Malaria. It kills one million children per year. A mosquito net, a simple thing that is plentiful, but nearly impossible for many who need it to procure. The reality there are many solutions to problems that are withheld from people for one reason or another. This may not technically be the case with AIDS, I don’t think people who believe it is are crazy. [QUOTE=Shodan] and [Hurricane Katrina](http://www.mrc.org/cyberalerts/2006/cyb20060831.asp#2). [/quote] Another situation where actual racism and ineptitude inspires people to engage in unfounded speculation. Actual events like the bridge [blockade](http://blog.nola.com/times-picayune/2007/09/bridge_blockade_after_katrina.html) make it easier for some people to believe people might go one step further. Sure, those people may be wrong, but they delving into terrain that often requires a lot of guesswork and assumptions. Mistakes will happen. It’s not as though people who have actually engaged in terrible things like what is alleged will admit it. [QUOTE=Shodan] And the drug conspiracy thing seems to have started with the _San Jose Mercury News_ ([cite](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/special/cia.html) ). [/QUOTE] Well to be fair, the drug thing started with the government turning a blind eye to drug trafficking, getting involved with drug traffickers, and not addressing the fallout. As the [PBS](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/forum/october96/crack_contra_11-1.html) report on the initial claims stated: > [@](#): > > A 1989 Senate Foreign Relations Committee report that looked into this issue also stopped just short of implicating the CIA. It stated, “There are some serious questions as to whether or not U.S. officials involved in Central America failed to address the drug issue for fear of jeopardizing the war effort against Nicaragua.” > > Senator John Kerry (D-MA), Chairman of that sub-Committee, had this to say about the recent allegations raised by Mr. Webb and others, “ **There is no question in my mind that people affiliated with, or on the payroll of the CIA were involved in drug trafficking while involved in support of the Contras, but it is also important to note that we never found any evidence to suggest that these traffickers ever targeted any one geographic area or population group.** ” So the CIA was, at the very least, aiding an abetting the sale of drugs in this country. The drugs were sold to Black gangs who sell to Black people. Don’t you think factual evidence that is available to us precludes this from being just another crackpot theory? This s really a question of aims and motives. The believers may assume sinister motives where ignorance or indifference is a better fit, but they are operating from a perspective, which historically speaking, equates this selective ignorance/indifference with malevolence. Many times, the reasons for one’s ignorance or indifferent are rooted in the same pernicious racism. [QUOTE=Shodan] As to why, I would guess that a conspiracy theory is more comforting to those see themselves as losers than anything more clear-headed. [/QUOTE] WFT? This makes no sense to me. These theories are “comforting” to the extent they are because they allow one to whittle a complex situation to something digestible. They give order to chaos. It’s the same reason people believe in religion or government. Is the conspiracy theory that the gov’t blew up a levee more absurd than the conspiracy theory that the Jews and Romans conspired to kill the son of God? It’s much easier to think there is someone behind everything controlling outcomes than just a infinite regression of small decisions and changes that have unforeseen and tragically consequential effects. It’s part of the human condition. It’s not unique to Blacks, and it doesn’t mean you are a loser. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/47 "2008-03-17T12:37:51Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] It would be interesting to see any example of the government ordering any person to move into a neighborhood populated by a different perceived race. [/QUOTE] Well, not moving, of course, but instances of forced integration are not hard to [find.](http://www.adversity.net/special/busing.htm) [Cite.](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4013/is_200610/ai_n17193753) [Cite.](http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/3563642.html) [Cite.](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,912178,00.html) [Etc.](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CEED8143DF934A2575AC0A963958260) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/48 "2008-03-17T14:13:01Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Or maybe it’s time to give up on forced integration and let people segregate, as they are naturally inclined to do. [/QUOTE] Would that also involve scrapping affirmative action? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/49 "2008-03-17T14:27:20Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Would that also involve scrapping affirmative action? [/QUOTE] Scrap it? Hell, we need to drive a stake through its heart and bury it at a crossroad. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/50 "2008-03-17T15:00:30Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Well, not moving, of course, but instances of forced integration are not hard to [find.](http://www.adversity.net/special/busing.htm) [/quote] So. You’ve got nothing. While bussing to create schools of mixtures of perceived races was a dumb idea, it did not compel any person of any perceived race to live next to anyone else. Given that nearly every bussing edict in the country has already been rescinded, **LonesomePolecat** ’s contention that “it is time to give up on forced integration” is hopelessly out of date. Claims for “natural segregation,” of course, have the unfortunate history that they have been used to justify block busting, red-lining, vandalism and a number of other actions that were used to prevent natural integration, so that is certainly an unfortunate choice of language–especially since no one is actually being compelled to live near anyone else, which is what integration actually means. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/51 "2008-03-17T15:26:56Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] So. You’ve got nothing. [/quote] No, 5 \> 0. So, that would be an other-than-factual assertion. > [@](#): > > While bussing to create schools of mixtures of perceived races was a dumb idea, it did not compel any person of any perceived race to live next to anyone else. And since no one in the thread has suggested that it did, your statement is rather pointless. > [@](#): > > …since no one is actually being compelled to live near anyone else, which is what integration actually means. Again, not a truthful statement. [Integration n. 1. The act or process of integrating. 2. The state of becoming integrated. 2. The bringing of people of different racial or ethnic groups into unrestricted and equal association, as in society or an organization; desegregation.](http://www.answers.com/topic/integration?cat=health) Note the reference to “organization”, and the absence of any reference to forcing people to move their residence. You mentioned earlier that five cites were nothing, so I won’t bother with more. Unless you can produce a reliable cite showing that “integration” always and only refers to forced moving, you can consider yourself as refuted. Or ignore it and continue pretending, as you prefer. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/52 "2008-03-17T15:35:28Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Or maybe it’s time to give up on forced integration and let people segregate, as they are naturally inclined to do. Maybe it’s time to admit that our fifty year experiment with forced integration has been a failure and quit trying to make people of different races and cultures live together in the same communities when obviously they don’t really want to do so. Maybe then, when we’re no longer constantly stepping on each other’s toes and when whites no longer have to come up with ridiculous subterfuges to be allowed the privilege of living among their own kind, we’ll be able to develop some real mutual trust and respect. [/QUOTE] Now I haven’t read the whole thread, but i did read this and had to jump up and down a bit. This is simply ridiculous. “Forced integration” ended long ago, and even then it was more about making black kids go to the same school (rather than live in the same neighborhoods) as white kids. No one forces blacks to live in one place and whites to live in another and last time I checked discrimination in housing on the basis of race is illegal damn near everywhere. And last time I checked, there were no subterfuges - people bought the best house they could afford. You set up the law to make sure that people cannot be discriminated against legally; the rest is the slow work of time to change people’s attitudes and opinions. You can’t change that overnight, and you can’t change it by passing some stupid law either. You have to let people learn for themselves. On review - **tomndebb** said it as well, but I think it’s important enough to say twice. Also - **Shodan** - I think it’s ludicrous to claim that the Left has a monopoly on moonbats and radicals; for every Rev Wright on one side, you’ve got Anne Coulter on the other and they’re of about the same insanity as well as volume. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/53 "2008-03-17T17:33:04Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] It’s one thing to say that the government shouldn’t discriminate against racial minorities. It’s another thing to say that the government should regulate the demographics of our communities. [/QUOTE] And it’s a third thing to say government should not **allow** discrimination against racial minorities, which is what the civil rights movement was really all about. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/54 "2008-03-17T17:36:47Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] . . . and when whites no longer have to come up with ridiculous subterfuges to be allowed the privilege of living among their own kind . . . [/QUOTE] What makes you think that’s not possible now? From occasionally lurking on Stormfront I am aware of the existence of several all-white communes or colonies in the Pacific Northwest. Government has never tried to force them to let in nonwhites (and what nonwhite would **want** to live in one?). There’s no “ridiculous subterfuge” required, the group just needs to acquire title to the land. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/55 "2008-03-17T19:34:17Z")
[QUOTE=GomiBoy] Also - **Shodan** - I think it’s ludicrous to claim that the Left has a monopoly on moonbats and radicals; for every Rev Wright on one side, you’ve got Anne Coulter on the other and they’re of about the same insanity as well as volume. [/QUOTE] No one said they had a monopoly. But if my pastor said anything remotely similar about blacks or whites, I would not remain a member of the church for twenty years or use him as one of my inspirations if I wrote a book. White supremacist churches are small and marginalized. A member of Wright’s church is currently the front runner for the White House. Why the disparity? > [@brickbacon](#): > > How do you even define anti-Americanism? Traditionally, criticizing one’s country, with the hopes that it will make us better, used to be considered patriotic. Right - spreading lies and urban legends and screaming “God damn America!” is really done out of a deeply felt love of country. Put it this way - if I began raving that black men wanted to rape white women, and that all their women were lazy welfare cheats, would you assume I was saying it because I cared so much about blacks, and wanted only to help? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/56 "2008-03-17T19:44:43Z")
And the Rev. Mr. Hagee? Rev. Parlsey? Any thoughts on Mr McCain’s spiritual advisors. or would you prefer to keep this focused on a comfortable subject? ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/57 "2008-03-17T19:50:39Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] No one said they had a monopoly. [/quote] You inferred it rather strongly in your post when you said: [QUOTE=Shodan] I imagine this kind of rabid anti-Americanism is more common among leftists in general. Certainly it can also appear among those on the right, and the extremes at both ends tend to blend together, but it is my experience that rabid anti-Americanism appears among those who are not as extreme on the left as compared to those who are on the right. As you move toward either end, IOW, rabid rhetoric and beliefs appear sooner on the left than the right. IYSWIM. [/QUOTE] > [@Shodan](#): > > But if my pastor said anything remotely similar about blacks or whites, I would not remain a member of the church for twenty years or use him as one of my inspirations if I wrote a book. White supremacist churches are small and marginalized. A member of Wright’s church is currently the front runner for the White House. Why the disparity? Your conservative candidates have the millstone of intolerant fundamentalists and evangelicals around their necks; Hagee is just the latest in a string. Rather than denounce them, they are embraced and brought into the fold and asked for help in planning strategy and a legislative agenda. When your fellow conservatives remove these intolerant assholes from the very seat of power, I’ll grant you there’s a disparity. Until then, this is hypocrisy of the highest order by those demanding some sort of sack cloth and ashes act for someone with little to no bearing on a candidate’s behavior or attitudes, and whose more outlandish statements have been flatly denounced by the candidate in question. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/58 "2008-03-17T19:52:26Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] (sigh) I’ve heard people use exactly the same kind of reasoning to explain Pearl Harbor. The Japanese were upset over oil and scrap metal embargoes, or Roosevelt deliberately provoked the attack so he could have an excuse to get into the war against Hitler. Why do some people insist on believing such things? **Do they really have such a hard time believing America could be morally in the right?** [/QUOTE] (bolding mine) I think you’re stretching things here quite a bit. I think it’s 100% clear that the reason Al Qaeda attacked us on 9/11 was in response to things we had done. We did things that pissed them off. They attacked us. However, I don’t see that has anything to do with whether or not we were morally in the right. Al Qaeda is bad bad bad people. Thus, the fact that an action pissed them off in no way implies that that action was morally wrong, or that we should not have taken it. But it’s ridiculous for us to pretend that Al Qaeda attacked us simply because they couldn’t stand knowing that there was a country on the other side of the world that was rich and prosperous and free and didn’t make women go around in Burqas. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/59 "2008-03-17T20:10:20Z")
[QUOTE=MaxTheVool] (bolding mine) I think you’re stretching things here quite a bit. I think it’s 100% clear that the reason Al Qaeda attacked us on 9/11 was in response to things we had done. We did things that pissed them off. They attacked us. However, I don’t see that has anything to do with whether or not we were morally in the right. Al Qaeda is bad bad bad people. Thus, the fact that an action pissed them off in no way implies that that action was morally wrong, or that we should not have taken it. But it’s ridiculous for us to pretend that Al Qaeda attacked us simply because they couldn’t stand knowing that there was a country on the other side of the world that was rich and prosperous and free and didn’t make women go around in Burqas. [/QUOTE] Why is it some people have such a hard time believing that whilst we’re not the great Satan we’re described as, we are sometimes doing things that people might not like and might want to take action about… 9-11 was not our ‘fault’ but it was a result of our actions. Not that we could or would change those actions, but to simply stick fingers in our ears and keep chanting “we’re the good guys” is not going to help solve our problems. And anyone who doesn’t believe the Muslim world has a few legitimate grudges should read up on the CIA’s experience in Iran with Mossadegh. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494/60 "2008-03-17T21:31:50Z")
[QUOTE=MaxTheVool] But it’s ridiculous for us to pretend that Al Qaeda attacked us simply because they couldn’t stand knowing that there was a country on the other side of the world that was rich and prosperous and free and didn’t make women go around in Burqas. [/QUOTE] Which has been more or less the Bush Admin’s official line for six years now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-prevalent-is-the-rev-wrights-stance-amongst-african-americans/441494.md?page=4)