# How quickly did H .sapiens forget H. neanderthalensis? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 14, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224 "2016-04-14T22:19:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/1 "2016-04-14T22:19:26Z")
Hope you don’t mind another thread on our fascinating lost cousins, on a bit of an anthropology trip at the mo, got a question I could use some rampant speculation or educated guesses on - that is, when did the memory of the short stocky guys with the brow ridges completely vanish from human memory? Before the discovery of fossils in 1829 humanity had zero idea that at one point we shared Europe and parts of Asia with another hominid species, yet _homo sapiens_ and _homo neanderthalensis_ co-existed for up to [5,000 years](http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/anthropology/science-neanderthals-coexisted-humans-02111.html)! We even interbred with them. Perhaps in tongues long forgotten they even had words for each other. So, when they began to vanish from Europe and the final ‘pure’ Neanderthal drew their last breath, how much longer did memory of them linger on? Unfortunately we hadn’t figured out history or writing so essentially I’m asking how long do you reckon an oral tradition - or the obviousness of Neanderthal traits that survived in DNA - lasted? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/2 "2016-04-14T22:47:02Z")
Stories about Neanderthals might have been passed down in stories for several generations. [Oral tradition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_tradition) has a lasting legacy in some cultures. I guess at some point even the story tellers no longer spoke about the Neanderthals. WAG perhaps 8 generations later. The American natives for example have a rich oral tradition. But no longer remember details of migrating to this continent. Its just too long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/3 "2016-04-14T22:47:25Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > …when did the memory of the short stocky guys with the brow ridges completely vanish from human memory? > > Before the discovery of fossils in 1829 humanity had zero idea that at one point we shared Europe and parts of Asia with another hominid species… Did we ever entirely forget? Do no most cultures have tales of races of Others? Like yet unlike men they are, wilder, hairier, often of fearsome strength. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/4 "2016-04-14T23:37:15Z")
If we interbred and lived together…did they really see much of a difference? ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/5 "2016-04-15T02:53:50Z")
Don’t you think stories about trolls and the like might have been based on distorted tales about neanderthals? Most of our stories about dragons and unicorns are based on distorted tales about creatures that did or do actually exist. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/6 "2016-04-15T03:16:42Z")
Humans have a defective muscle protein and are much weaker than comparable animals, like chimps and large dogs. Our Neanderthal cousins probably did have fearsome strength. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/7 "2016-04-15T03:32:24Z")
I recall reading something where a person had gone through and researched cookbooks and noted that “traditional recipes” could often mean things that were only 40-60 years old, because those were the recipes that were passed down from grandma. When things are passed down through oral tradition, there’s no older record than grandma, so anything true for her, is as old as it gets and many recipes were passed down from person to person rather than through cookbook. Anything older than grandma, in the age before writing, is just legend and fantasy. And if those legends aren’t very interesting, presumably they’ll quickly lose out to the legends that are more fun. So in some instances those stories may have stuck around for a long time, in others it may have quickly died out. Potentially, some story that we have in modern day is in some small way related to the neanderthals. But there’d be no way to know that. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/8 "2016-04-15T04:03:05Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The American natives for example have a rich oral tradition. But no longer remember details of migrating to this continent. Its just too long ago. They almost certainly didn’t realize they were entering new continents, since each band probably didn’t move all that far in the lifetime of a single individual. Some speculate that Native American legends of the “Stiff-legged Bear” or Big Man-eater" may refer to [mastodons or mammoths](http://www.native-languages.org/stifflegged.htm), or that the [Thunderbird may be based on the extinct Teratornis.](http://birdnote.org/show/myth-thunderbird) However, this is far from certain. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/9 "2016-04-15T05:12:34Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > They almost certainly didn’t realize they were entering new continents, since each band probably didn’t move all that far in the lifetime of a single individual. And it wasn’t a new continent then; Beringia was dry land, even if mostly covered by ice. They just followed the coastline! ---
**Author:** ![Whiskey\_Dickens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc348/32.png) [@Whiskey\_Dickens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whiskey_Dickens)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/10 "2016-04-15T13:25:20Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Anything older than grandma, in the age before writing, is just legend and fantasy. And if those legends aren’t very interesting, presumably they’ll quickly lose out to the legends that are more fun. So in some instances those stories may have stuck around for a long time, in others it may have quickly died out. [Here’s a record the Inuit oral history of the Franklin expedition](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/franklin-find-proves-inuit-oral-history-is-strong-louie-kamookak-1.2761362) [Here’s an example of Inuit oral history describing events from 8,000 years ago.](http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2014/08/31/when_science_meets_aboriginal_oral_history.html) The story about the Tuniit is fascinating because it was acknowledged before we had corresponding scientific proof. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/11 "2016-04-15T14:56:06Z")
> [@Whiskey\_Dickens](#): > > [Here’s a record the Inuit oral history of the Franklin expedition](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/franklin-find-proves-inuit-oral-history-is-strong-louie-kamookak-1.2761362) > > [Here’s an example of Inuit oral history describing events from 8,000 years ago.](http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2014/08/31/when_science_meets_aboriginal_oral_history.html) > The story about the Tuniit is fascinating because it was acknowledged before we had corresponding scientific proof. The Tuniit story is very interesting, but it isn’t 8,000 years old. They allegedly died out in 1200 A.D., which makes it more like 800 years old - still an impressive figure, to be sure. It would be roughly equivalent of modern-day English people having a folk memory of the Crusades, or the Norman Conquest (which is of course a bit older, but more directly analogous). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/12 "2016-04-15T15:01:12Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > They almost certainly didn’t realize they were entering new continents, since each band probably didn’t move all that far in the lifetime of a single individual. Perhaps no one recognized Neanderthal as being all that different. Some big ugly strong guys. Not too bright. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/13 "2016-04-15T15:52:42Z")
There’s no reason to think Neanderthals were any less (or more) intelligent than contemporary Sapiens. The two parties probably regarded each other as somewhat funny looking and puzzling in some customs. Who knows, Sapiens might even have learned some valuable stuff from Neanderthal and vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/14 "2016-04-15T16:10:12Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Who knows, Sapiens might even have learned some valuable stuff from Neanderthal and vice versa. Well, someone showed a lady his etchings, that much we know. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/15 "2016-04-15T16:27:50Z")
Thanks for the replies and links guys. Thought about the idea that trolls, goblins and what have you might be the retold and retold hand versions of what might have been based on reality at one point, though did anyone think that before 1829 that these myths could have a factual ‘starting point’? Reminds me of the ‘Hobbits’ of Flores island, where the natives have a legend of ‘ebu gogo’, a forest dwelling diminutive trickster the natives say was last seen in the 17th Century. So when we found _H. floresiensis_ it was assumed by many that there was a connection. Still, many cultures have similar tales of leprechauns and such with no apparent factual basis so who knows. Fascinating link on the tuniit being the Dorset culture, wasn’t familiar with that, seems like it’s certainly possible that tales of them lasted centuries after they were replaced by the _H. sapiens_ population. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/16 "2016-04-15T16:28:12Z")
Sometimes H. sapiens forgot H. neanderthalensis so quickly it led to awkward situations. “Hi, I’m Phil. I’m a Homo Sapiens. And you are…” “Marty. Neanderthal. I know your name, Phil, we’ve met on several occasions.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/17 "2016-04-15T16:42:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Sometimes H. sapiens forgot H. neanderthalensis so quickly it led to awkward situations. > > “Hi, I’m Phil. I’m a Homo Sapiens. And you are…” > “Marty. Neanderthal. I know your name, Phil, we’ve met on several occasions.” Eh, it’s better than how we treated the Denisovans, a one night stand then not so much as a text message, shameful! ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/18 "2016-04-15T16:46:40Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Thanks for the replies and links guys. Thought about the idea that trolls, goblins and what have you might be the retold and retold hand versions of what might have been based on reality at one point, though did anyone think that before 1829 that these myths could have a factual ‘starting point’? > > Reminds me of the ‘Hobbits’ of Flores island, where the natives have a legend of ‘ebu gogo’, a forest dwelling diminutive trickster the natives say was last seen in the 17th Century. So when we found _H. floresiensis_ it was assumed by many that there was a connection. Still, many cultures have similar tales of leprechauns and such with no apparent factual basis so who knows. > > Fascinating link on the tuniit being the Dorset culture, wasn’t familiar with that, seems like it’s certainly possible that tales of them lasted centuries after they were replaced by the _H. sapiens_ population. I don’t know how much I buy into factual starting. It’s worth looking into oral traditions, certainly. We’ve definitely made some interesting connections that panned out, but people don’t need anything real to come up with fantastical nonsense. We don’t even need to look at prehistory: Mothman, Nessie and chupacabra are all modern inventions and none of them are based on anything real that resembles them much at all. Probably owls, seals/waves/toy subs and mangy coyotes respectively. Wild men (trolls, ogres, whatever) are all basically human in shape and it doesn’t take much imagination to come up with them. They could also be normal humans who are mentally ill or from a tribe with strange customs/language. ---
**Author:** ![Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellis_Aponte_Jr)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/19 "2016-04-15T16:56:54Z")
There are Irish legends that say the Irish people previously lived in Iberia and have deeper roots in Egypt and Scythia, which genetic studies indicate may very well be true within the time frame of around 5-10,000 years before present. Of course it could just be a coincidence, or perhaps a post-Christian attempt to connect the Irish to Biblical lands. ---
**Author:** ![Whiskey\_Dickens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc348/32.png) [@Whiskey\_Dickens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whiskey_Dickens)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/20 "2016-04-15T17:26:46Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The Tuniit story is very interesting, but it isn’t 8,000 years old. They allegedly died out in 1200 A.D., which makes it more like 800 years old - still an impressive figure, to be sure. It would be roughly equivalent of modern-day English people having a folk memory of the Crusades, or the Norman Conquest (which is of course a bit older, but more directly analogous). Whoops, I messed my dates up. You are correct about them dying out more recently. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224.md?page=2)