# How quickly did H .sapiens forget H. neanderthalensis? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 14, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224 "2016-04-14T22:19:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/21 "2016-04-15T17:39:05Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Thanks for the replies and links guys. Thought about the idea that trolls, goblins and what have you might be the retold and retold hand versions of what might have been based on reality at one point, though did anyone think that before 1829 that these myths could have a factual ‘starting point’? > > Reminds me of the ‘Hobbits’ of Flores island, where the natives have a legend of ‘ebu gogo’, a forest dwelling diminutive trickster the natives say was last seen in the 17th Century. So when we found _H. floresiensis_ it was assumed by many that there was a connection. Still, many cultures have similar tales of leprechauns and such with no apparent factual basis so who knows. > > Fascinating link on the tuniit being the Dorset culture, wasn’t familiar with that, seems like it’s certainly possible that tales of them lasted centuries after they were replaced by the _H. sapiens_ population. The problem with such modern-day folktales and legends is that they are impossible "to pin down on detail and so could easily be thought to “fit” better than they actually do, by post facto selection. For example, Europeans have legends about dwarves, pixies, trolls, elves, and giants, and probably a lot more - but these creatures are described in all sorts of ways: as larger than people, smaller than people, brutish compared to people, or more refined and magical … I would love to think that such stories are the result of folk memories of ancient species, but I’m inclined to doubt it. The variation is so great that, even if they were “inspired by” real Neanderthals, the details have changed so much as to be unrecognizable … it is more likely that, out of the whole spectrum of folktales of other supernatural species, we take those that appear to us most “like” what we imagine Neanderthals to have been like (stocky, strong and brutish - more like some sort of troll) rather than those who were clearly unlike (tiny little brownies, or elves that whisk people away to a magical realm). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/22 "2016-04-15T17:40:33Z")
> [@Whiskey\_Dickens](#): > > Whoops, I messed my dates up. You are correct about them dying out more recently. No prob - it is still an awesomely interesting account! ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/23 "2016-04-15T19:37:37Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The Tuniit story is very interesting, but it isn’t 8,000 years old. They allegedly died out in 1200 A.D., which makes it more like 800 years old - still an impressive figure, to be sure. It would be roughly equivalent of modern-day English people having a folk memory of the Crusades, or the Norman Conquest (which is of course a bit older, but more directly analogous). The Klamath Indians have a myth about a battle between two of their gods derived from [the eruption of Mount Mazama and subsequent creation of Crater Lake.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Mazama) That happened about 7600 years ago so it is possible for stories to be passed down through oral tradition over a very long period of time. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/24 "2016-04-15T21:06:09Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > The Klamath Indians have a myth about a battle between two of their gods derived from [the eruption of Mount Mazama and subsequent creation of Crater Lake.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Mazama) That happened about 7600 years ago so it is possible for stories to be passed down through oral tradition over a very long period of time. I was merely pointing out that the quoted story wasn’t that old. That doesn’t of course make it impossible for such folk memories to persist for a very long time. I would be very interested in hearing more about this myth. It is certainly possible for such a cataclysmic event to leave an impression, but that it is a folk memory relies on the same folk living continually in the same area for that length of time. It is also possible that the story is a more recent invention. Though I must admit, the specificity of this particular myth makes it an impressive example. It is similar to the identification of the Atlantis myth with the eruption of Thera: > **[Minoan eruption](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption)** > > The Minoan eruption was a catastrophic volcanic eruption that devastated the Aegean island of Thera (also called Santorini) circa 1600 BCE. It destroyed the Minoan settlement at Akrotiri, as well as communities and agricultural areas on nearby islands and the coast of Crete with subsequent earthquakes and paleotsunamis. With a Volcanic Explosivity Index (VEI) of 6, it resulted in the ejection of approximately 28–41 km3 (6.7–9.8 cu mi) of dense-rock equivalent (DRE), the eruption wa Although the... It is interesting to note that, despite its comparative youth (mid-2nd millennia BC), and the fact it was located right in the heart of classical civilization, it left no clear “folk memory”, other than possibly the Atlantis myth or the Titanomachy in ancient Greek myth. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/25 "2016-04-15T21:19:26Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > We don’t even need to look at prehistory: Mothman, Nessie and chupacabra are all modern inventions and none of them are based on anything real that resembles them much at all. Probably owls, seals/waves/toy subs and mangy coyotes respectively. Sure, we could go that way. But their origins are a lot more interesting if we shift everyone one space and assume that Mothman was a seal, Nessie was a coyote, and chupacabra was an owl. Now the mystery’s back. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/26 "2016-04-15T22:18:32Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I was merely pointing out that the quoted story wasn’t that old. That doesn’t of course make it impossible for such folk memories to persist for a very long time. > > I would be very interested in hearing more about this myth. > > It is certainly possible for such a cataclysmic event to leave an impression, but that it is a folk memory relies on the same folk living continually in the same area for that length of time. It is also possible that the story is a more recent invention. Though I must admit, the specificity of this particular myth makes it an impressive example. Here’s another Wikipedia link about [the battle between the Klamath sky-god, Skell, and their god of the underworld, Llao.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llao) According to the myth, the whole thing started when a daughter of a Klamath chief spurned the romantic advances of Llao who, despite being a god, was rather on the homely side. In the Pacific Northwest, [there are also Indian myths and legends about the Missoula Floods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_Floods)which occurred near the end of the last Ice Age about 13,000 to 15,000 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/27 "2016-04-15T22:59:19Z")
In Roman times the native Britons hadn’t the slightest fucking idea what Stonehenge was and it was only about a thousand years old. So the oral tradition isn’t that great for record keeping. Neanderthals died out 40,000 years ago, and it’s unlikely an anecdote was turned into a myth recounted so faithfully it made it to recorded legends 2,000 years ago. Or the “hobbits,” who lived – isolated from the rest of humanity – 60,000-100,000 years ago in what is now Indonesia – having anything to do with popular legends in Ireland which is also isolated and on the other side of the planet. Fun to speculate? Sure. But not remotely realistic and impossible to prove anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/28 "2016-04-15T23:46:30Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Hope you don’t mind another thread on our fascinating lost cousins, on a bit of an anthropology trip at the mo, got a question I could use some rampant speculation or educated guesses on - that is, when did the memory of the short stocky guys with the brow ridges completely vanish from human memory? Last weekend, but we had all been drinking. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/29 "2016-04-16T02:56:27Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Last weekend, but we had all been drinking. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/30 "2016-04-16T03:44:30Z")
> [@Whiskey\_Dickens](#): > > [Here’s a record the Inuit oral history of the Franklin expedition](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/franklin-find-proves-inuit-oral-history-is-strong-louie-kamookak-1.2761362) > > [Here’s an example of Inuit oral history describing events from 8,000 years ago.](http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2014/08/31/when_science_meets_aboriginal_oral_history.html) > The story about the Tuniit is fascinating because it was acknowledged before we had corresponding scientific proof. Yes, there are some cultures who have developed very meticulous oral traditions, training some of each generation to repeat an ever expanding opus of historical/religious information. But, that’s not something which can be counted upon in every society. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/31 "2016-04-16T14:30:27Z")
Just to correct some dating (doesn’t affect the point you are tying to make, but just for the record): > [@tnetennba](#): > > In Roman times the native Britons hadn’t the slightest fucking idea what Stonehenge was and it was only about a thousand years old. Stonehenge, as we know it, is about 4,500 years old-- 2,500 years before the Roman occupation of Britain. > [@](#): > > So the oral tradition isn’t that great for record keeping. > > Neanderthals died out 40,000 years ago… More like 28,000 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/32 "2016-04-16T14:41:43Z")
I suspect they didn’t think much about Neanderthals at the time other than wow what an ugly tribe of people. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/33 "2016-04-16T15:52:15Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > I suspect they didn’t think much about Neanderthals at the time other than wow what an ugly tribe of people. Depends. If Neanderthals did not have a language capability the same as ours, they may have thought of them as: The People who can’t speak very well. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/34 "2016-04-16T15:53:31Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There’s no reason to think Neanderthals were any less (or more) intelligent than contemporary Sapiens. The two parties probably regarded each other as somewhat funny looking and puzzling in some customs. Who knows, Sapiens might even have learned some valuable stuff from Neanderthal and vice versa. Whatever they learned from us must not have been useful enough given their eventual fate. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/35 "2016-04-16T16:32:28Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Whatever they learned from us must not have been useful enough given their eventual fate. Well, many of us today are their descendants, so in that sense a few of them did as well as any people of their day. 😉 > [@tnetennba](#): > > …the oral tradition isn’t that great for record keeping. > > Neanderthals died out 40,000 years ago, and it’s unlikely an anecdote was turned into a myth recounted so faithfully it made it to recorded legends 2,000 years ago. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > More like 28,000 years ago. There is some evidence of Neanderthal survival as late as 24,000 YA. Separately, there is good evidence of overlapping regional European habitation with AMH of _at least_ 2,600 years. More conjectural hypotheses place Neanderthals and AMHs overlapping in Asia for at least 10,000 and perhaps as long as 18,000 years. This is time for a damn sight more than “an anecdote.” The existence of nearby living Neanderthals may have been a primary feature for many generations of some AMH cultures. **tnetennba** ’s basic point (AIUI) is still valid: the stories _themselves_ are not evidence–either way. There is no way anyone could distinguish, looking back from today, between stories that represented a deliberate effort to preserve concrete experience and knowledge of Neanderthals, versus pure fancies by people who had never heard anything about them. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/36 "2016-04-16T18:00:37Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > rather than those who were clearly unlike (tiny little brownies, or elves that whisk people away to a magical realm). Hm, elves - a small people living in underground mounds … _cough_[Scara Brae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skara_Brae) _cough_ ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/37 "2016-04-16T18:26:19Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Thanks for the replies and links guys. Thought about the idea that trolls, goblins and what have you might be the retold and retold hand versions of what might have been based on reality at one point, though did anyone think that before 1829 that these myths could have a factual ‘starting point’? > > Reminds me of the ‘Hobbits’ of Flores island, where the natives have a legend of ‘ebu gogo’, a forest dwelling diminutive trickster the natives say was last seen in the 17th Century. So when we found _H. floresiensis_ it was assumed by many that there was a connection. Still, many cultures have similar tales of leprechauns and such with no apparent factual basis so who knows… Yes, it’s surprising how often ancient lore tends to be based on fact. The _Lebor Gabala Erenn_, a legendary tale of Irish history long considered fiction, contains the perhaps startling assertion that the Gaelic people of Ireland came from Spain. It turns out that Ireland and Spain are both hotspots for [y-chromosome haplogroup R1b](http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml), perhaps providing evidence of an ancient kinship that the writers of the _Lebor_ were aware of. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/38 "2016-04-16T20:16:32Z")
It gets into the realm of psychic dreamers where any incidental/coincidental hit is PROOF and no amount of misses contradicts. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/39 "2016-04-16T20:38:10Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Yes, it’s surprising how often ancient lore tends to be based on fact. The _Lebor Gabala Erenn_, a legendary tale of Irish history long considered fiction, contains the perhaps startling assertion that the Gaelic people of Ireland came from Spain. It turns out that Ireland and Spain are both hotspots for [y-chromosome haplogroup R1b](http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml), perhaps providing evidence of an ancient kinship that the writers of the _Lebor_ were aware of. Yes, sometimes. Oral Traditions have been surprisingly good sources of history. The key is sometimes; I don’t think that any oral myths are of Nerandrathals, they died long before we were anything but small groups of hunter-gatherers and chances of information surviving are remote. 50,000 years is 10 times the time from now to the negining of written history. It is possible IMO that some as yet unknown human species survived long enough to be encountered in historic times. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224/40 "2016-04-16T22:40:30Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > It is possible IMO that some as yet unknown human species survived long enough to be encountered in historic times. The best candidate, until recently, was _H. floresiensis_. The original fossils were dated at about 12K years ago, but recently that date has been pushed back quite a bit-- to about 50K yeas ago. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-quickly-did-h-sapiens-forget-h-neanderthalensis/752224.md?page=3)