Well, last I heard it was still not even firmly established that humans have mirror neurons. They were discovered in monkeys, where you are allowed to do such things as stick electrodes into their brains to see what individual neurons (though you don’t get to choose exactly which one) are doing. You can’t do that to people.
We probably do have them, though, and yes, the theory that some sort of defect of the human mirror neuron system is responsible for autism-spectrum disorders is popular amongst researchers in the field. It is not the only theory, though, and it is far from being proven. We still do not understand either mirror neurons or autism and Asperger’s very well.
Believe it or not but your struggles with getting rid of your thoughts are not that abnormal for those who are “always in their heads”. I struggled for many years stopping my thoughts and through practice and being mindful I have decreased the thoughts going through my mind in a regular day anywhere from 50-75%.
I do not want you to think that only people with disorders have this problem. In fact it is the main malady affecting those who suffer from too much stress or anxiety. If you would like more resources on how to stop thoughts please PM me and I will link you to many techniques.
The point is that maybe this is a result of “atypical neurological wiring and/or chemistry”, or this is just the result of somebody who has been living their lives predominantly in their thoughts rather than their present environment, though on the extreme end. The problem you describe is common enough where it makes me question if “stopping your thoughts” is really something that is just not possible for you to do, or just a mixture of limiting beliefs, incorrect technique for removing thoughts, and extreme habit.
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Well, last I heard it was still not even firmly established that humans have mirror neurons. They were discovered in monkeys, where you are allowed to do such things as stick electrodes into their brains to see what individual neurons (though you don’t get to choose exactly which one) are doing. You can’t do that to people.
We probably do have them, though, and yes, the theory that some sort of defect of the human mirror neuron system is responsible for autism-spectrum disorders is popular amongst researchers in the field. It is not the only theory, though, and it is far from being proven. We still do not understand either mirror neurons or autism and Asperger’s very well. [/QUOTE]
What are you arguing exactly? We probably have them but we might not so let’s not even go down this direction?
I’m not saying that Asperger’s syndrome is something that does not even exist. I’m just saying that I suspect a significant number of people diagnosed with this condition by both professionals and themselves are actually on the extreme end of “being in their heads”.
If you have lived your entire life in your head, it is VERY difficult to snap out of but it CAN be done with diligent practice and see improvements in a just a few weeks.
Can someone tell me what “NT” stands for? I’ve figured out from context that it refers to people who don’t have Asperger’s, but I’m curious what the abbreviation actually stands for. (It’s obviously not New Testament.)
No clue in the world why you took it that way. I never said anything about organizing your thoughts. When you have no thoughts there is no organization at all, because they are not there at all.
A lot of people view ASD as being merely neurologically atypical. Or just another way of being, rather than an actual disorder.
I actually think this politicalization of the whole thing adds to the idea that ASD is “made-up” or something that perfectly able weirdos latch onto to gain some gravitas. But other “disordered” people do the same thing, so maybe I’m wrong.
If you don’t want to try it then don’t. If you have never experienced a no-thought state like the one I mentioned then no amount of reading can catch you up on it.
Your advice doesn’t work on me. I have been doing your “suggestion” for a long time now. Thanks though.
I have found that moving works for me. Spinning, walking, rocking, swaying…all of these are ways that make me feel better when my thoughts become too loud. They clear my brain. Standard relaxation techniques do not work unless I have external stimulation.
I do not have Asperger’s and I’m not claiming to have an Asperger’s-like brain, but you did ask people to try out your suggestion and report their feelings. Closing my eyes, trying to clear my thoughts, and then trying to “feel” is something I have been doing for years. Come to me when you get to progressive or autogenic relaxation exercises 'cuz I’ve done these too. For making me feel grounded and less “lost in the brain”, I have found that these techniques do not work as effectively for me as moving does. They have the paradoxical effect of making me more anxious…more entrained on my crazy thoughts. They have definitely not made me more empathetic or less alexithymic.
You are collecting data to test your hypothesis, right? Or are you going to imply again that I haven’t tried as hard as you have?
Your previous replies gave the impression that you have not tried my suggestion. Forgive me for not reading your mind and not being well versed on your personal experiences.
Moving past that unpleasantness I am actually not familiar with those relaxation methods and will take a look.
My biggest concern is not to tell people who have tried these “methods” that “they are not trying hard enough”. My biggest concern is getting people who have incorrectly decided they are helpless and have labeled themselves as such to at least attempt these “methods”. I put quotation marks around methods because they are simply another way to process your environment. Many people walk around like this, this is nothing revolutionary.
If I can get one person who has incorrectly concluded he cannot feel empathy to actually do so, I would be more than happy. We do not teach children in school that thoughts cause stress and anxiety, so there is a real lack of awareness around these issues. I want to separate the wheat from the chaff.
You may very well have problems with your neural connections which makes you an uncommon case, this is not what I’m after right now.
You speak as if you have some authority on this subject.
But you also speak as if everything you know about this has been gathered from selective reading on the internet.
That is why there is some snark in my most recent posts to you, and perhaps from the other posters who have replied. Anyone who has spent five minutes in a therapist’s office will be told to close their eyes, feel the blood coursing through their veins, and try to “feel.” It’s not exactly earth-shattering or revelatory, this recommendation of yours. I wouldn’t even say it’s a relaxation technique because it’s too simple to even be called that.
A practice in mindfulness in general may work with anxiety, which people who have Asperger’s tend to have. But you seem to think it will improve one’s ability to empathize. And not over a long time of practicing, but after just a few minutes! Why else would you ask Dopers to try this and then report back? Do you really think people who struggle in this area haven’t tried something as basic as being more aware of their world? Really?
A lot of people are tired about hearing about Asperger’s. It’s everywhere one turns, it seems. And everyone on the internet seems to have it. I get this. It annoys me too.
But I also understand why someone with Asperger’s thinks well-intentioned posts like yours are a bunch o’ crap. Well-meaning crap, but still crap. Your advice is like telling someone with Tourette’s to be more mindful about their bodies, and if they are mindful they won’t have any more problems! Surely, if you have any empathy, you know a person who struggles with Tourette’s has most likely tried their whole lives to do just that–and in a million different ways that you cannot even imagine.
A person who says they have a hard time feeling has no doubt tried their whole lives to be more aware of other people’s feelings. And in a million different ways, including yours.
Anyway, as I said earlier, people with Asperger’s rarely identify as numb or “not feeling.” They tend to be the opposite–feeling too much and being overly sensitive to external stimuli. Not inward stimuli, as you seem to believe. That is why I asked if you had read about schizoid PD. You have not said if you have. I recommend reading about this and more if you’d like a more receptive audience.
What gives you the assumption that everybody has tried this? My personal experience comes from 23+ years living inside my head before turning things around. As a child I had many of the characteristics of Asperger’s including selective mutism. The idea that learning to switch off my thoughts and “feel” my way through situations was not as obvious to me as it may have been for you.
People who are thought-oriented try to come up with solutions through logical rather than emotional models. For example if I cannot connect with a certain person, I will watch those that can and try to mimic their behaviors. This of course won’t always work because if your a nervous person and the other is calm, what works for him will not work for you. That is just an example of what I am talking about. It’s an entirely different form of processing your environment. What I suggest is purely emotional.
I understand where your snarkiness comes from. You have tried this and it has not worked for you, thus you think it’s a whole bunch of hooey. Yet your speaking as someone who may have “atypical neural connections”, in which case your experiences may not align with others.
Also, I never said 5 minutes of practice would cause miraculous results. No need to put words in my mouth.
I do not understand why you feel you need to speak for those who think they have Asperger’s. If it annoys you to see it, then ignore me. If people have already tried it then they can ignore me too. I want those who have not tried it to give it a try. Your holier-than-thou attitude is starting to make me snarky.
Right! And I’m saying this is an overly simplistic solution to a complicated problem.
It’s akin to telling a blind person, “Just open your eyes and see the world!”
“Just close your eyes, feel the blood coursing through your veins, and then be aware of everybody’s feelings!”
That is how simplistic and magical your advice reads to me. If you’re advocating a more sophisticated, nuanced approach, it doesn’t come across in your post.
A person who has identified, wrongly or correctly, as having Asperger’s is–by definition–saying that they have atypical neural connections.
You asked these folks to follow your advice and report back to you their experiences. I’m curious: Do you really think someone who believes they have atypical neurology will come back to you with anything other than, “Nope, that shit doesn’t work”? I mean, there are a number of Aspie folks who have posted to this thread and even more who may be lurking. Their silence should be telling you something, correct?
You do seem to think that results should occur pretty quickly, correct? The reason I assume this is because you asked Aspie-identifying Dopers to report back to you how they felt after doing the “feel the blood, be more aware” thing. If you don’t expect immediate results, then why ask people to do this? Why should anyone care to report back to you with anything if you’re just going to accuse them of being helpless?
I’m speaking as someone who has been lectured to her whole life to “just try it!” from people who do not know how it feels to be me, do not know what I have tried in the past, nor how hard I have tried it. Fortunately, I don’t get worked up most times, even when the advice seems to come from a very condescending place. I just toss it up to cluelessness and go on with my life. I imagine a lot of people, including people with Asperger’s, have been in this awkward always-getting-unsolicited-advice position.
I don’t feel a need to speak up for anyone. I’m just telling you how you’re coming across to me. And I don’t even identify as having Asperger’s. Based on previous comments that have been made to you, I don’t have to imagine too hard how someone with Asperger’s feels about your advice.
I haven’t been that snarky, IMHO. I have asked sincere questions that you have not responded too, but hey! I don’t care about that. But I also don’t care for being dismissed. When a person tells you their thoughts are a certain way, so they’ve learned to cope this way rather the conventional way, they generally don’t like when you respond with something like, “Your thoughts aren’t that different. You just aren’t trying as hard as I have. You’re limiting yourself and succumbing to helplessness.” That person gets snarky, you see. And then you start getting snarky at their snarkiness, and we end up with a wonderful positive feedback loop of snark.
I am arguing that people who clearly do not know much about mirror neurons, besides the name, should not bandy the concept in the attempt to lend weight to their uninformed speculations about the nature and causes of autism-spectrum disorders.
You do not need to do this for 5 years in order to feel anything. Nor will you feel anything in 5 minutes if you do it half-assed. But I do believe if you sit there a bit longer and put all your focus into your feelings and shut up your thoughts for just a little bit, they may recognize that there may be a different way of processing the world out there.
That’s what I want to see. I want to see if there is anything at all. I am very confident then many people (READ: not all) do not actually have any syndromes.
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Why not? If they really want to be helped and they have never tried it before then maybe they will. Why does it hurt to try. Why is it better to not try? Why conclude that “silence = your an idiot”. Because that’s how I read what you said.
My original post was posted 24 hours ago. Lets wait some time before we get all knee-jerky.
When did I ever say they were being helpless? I’m not calling anybody a victim. Rather offering a solution they may have not truly tried.
You seem to be projecting your past negative experiences onto me, a guy who is trying to see if he can help out a few who may not have the problem they think they have. I’m not pushing anybody into a corner. I understand you may have tried many things by many people and they have not worked. That’s fine, I’ve been in similar situations regarding other things, no need to take it out on me.
This sentence seems to be the issue: “Your thoughts aren’t that different. You just aren’t trying as hard as I have. You’re limiting yourself and succumbing to helplessness.”
At no point have I said any of those things. You have read between the lines of my posts and this is what you filtered them through. I came over with a hypothesis and you interpreted it how you wanted it to.
The problem here isn’t my age, it’s your resistance to advice from outsiders. If I came off as condescending I apologize, that was not my intention. My intention was to get some back and forth and see if I was on the right track. However, I’m afraid that many people, after seeing all this bickering, won’t even try.
I don’t have resistance from advice from “outsiders” who actually know what they are talking about.
When someone who does not appear to know what they are talking about and even admits to knowing the topic of conversation superficially AND they offer a facile bit of advice to handle a serious, debilitating problem, YES, I will be resistant to that. As would most people. You claim to have established yourself as an empathetic person after 23+ years of being “too inside your head.” But you are failing to understand why you are eliciting the responses you’re receiving and that indicates you may not be as empathetic as you believe you are.
Anyway, this is GQ, not GD, and I will not continue to hijack the conversation with more “bickering”. If you do go back, though, you will see where I have attempted to interact with you in a non-snarky way, almost agreeable way. If I’m being impatient with you, it’s because you are committed to a hypothesis without–to the reader’s eye–considering lines of evidence being offered to you that go counter to it.
As for the helplessness thing, just press ctrl-F and type “helpless.” Then report back what you find.
That is actually why I chose it. It was, in its turn, over diagnosed but it has since been verified and is now considered settled science.
Though is is probably still over-diagnosed to a degree and over-treated. I think a lot of the blame for both goes to the drug industry who intentionally promoted the diagnosis to boost Ritalin sales. But that doesn’t alter the science of ADHD which I think is pretty compelling.
I have to agree here. You sound like someone who has lost 20 pounds on the Atkins diet and now can’t have a conversation without trying to convince others to buy the book.
Just as all diets advise, “use only in consultation with your physician” I would suggest the same for the technique you propound.