How Republicans can kill two birds with one stone.

Cheesessteak, Evil Captor,

The point is to not prove the case here in this thread for Charter Schools. There is a good case to be made for them, or against them. The point is that many Blacks do, in fact, support them.

No, the point is that Republicans are not offering Black Voters a better set of policies than the Democrats, which is why Black Voters don’t vote for them.

There is a laundry list of Rep policies that negatively impact the poor, directly and immediately:
Food Stamps
Welfare and other entitlements
Minimum Wage
Health Care
Taxes (give those Lucky Duckies some ‘skin in the game’)
Voter ID

Maybe I LOVE Charter Schools. I want to marry a Charter School and have little baby Charter Schools. I’m not trading away all of the above to get an increase in the number of Charter Schools. As a poor Black Voter, I’m trying to make ends meet on a limited budget and if all your polices were enacted I’d be broke.

Since this isn’t Great Debates, we can’t ask for cites. Of course, you’ve asked your Many Black Friends.

Here in Texas, the big advocates for charter schools are white; their enemies are often Black or Tejano…

(Dan Patrick championed charter schools in last year’s session–his bill failed.)

On the larger topics of Republican Outreach to Minorities, no Tejanos have been taken in by Cubano-Canadian Ted Cruz. This article on his constituency says nothing about minorities–because he’s working the Mean Old White Guy demographic. (Heck, some of my neighbors are Mean Old White Guys–but Cruz is on their shit list, too. They care more for somebody’s words & actions than how he looks.)

I see no reason why we can’t do both. Vote Third Party and field progressive candidates within the Democratic Party. I would happily vote for an Al Franken or an Elizabeth Warren. But understand: I will not vote for Republican Lites. If a progressive loses the primary to a centrist democrat, I’m looking at third party candidates. I’m done with having no real choices.

The Tea Party was pure astroturf. They were bankrolled by the Koch Brothers. It was NOT an insurrection by devoted idealists, it was a calculated move by consummate insiders. If we could talk some wealthy Dem benefactor into bankrolling a progressive challenge to the Democratic Party, that would be great. But I’m not holding my breath. Soros seems to like centrists.

I was going to ask if you read the cites I already provided, then saw that I screwed up on the coding in Post 95 and it didn’t look like the cites were from me. They were. You can check there.

And why isn’t it possible that Charters are favored by more than one group? They are.

Voting, for most is not a one-issue event, I was asked what Rep policies align with Black interests. I threw out 2 or 3. So there is some stuff that some Blacks would see common cause with. In the case of Charters, maybe even rising to the single most important thing. For many parents, their children’s education is, indeed, the most important thing.

The reason that more Blacks do not vote for Reps is what I said is puzzling, and gave reasons why I thought so. One of those is that the Dem machine has succeeded in demonizing Reps as the party for rich white guys and haters of people of color. Biden’s “They’re gonna put y’all back in chains” is a perfect example. And many times, conservative Black candidates are the target of racism, with cries of “Uncle Tom”, “Oreo”, etc. Statistically, one would not think that skin color would be such a reliable indicator of voting preference.

If your thinking is correct, should’t all poor people vote 95% Rep? Do you think that is the case? If not, what is it about having black skin that suddenly causes such a hive mentality?

There are only two kinds of people. You’re either pulling the wagon or you’re riding the wagon.

Let’s get all the descriptions down. White, old, Southern, rich, racist and male. Did I get the gist of it? If so then the GOP is done and no longer a factor. Just another fly buzzing around.

So enter the Democrats: “look at me…look at me. I’m the captain now”.

RIP GOP. You did it to yourselves.

The flaw in the republic form of government… One man one vote. The candidate who promises the most to the most voters, gets the votes. Once elected, you deliver the goods, and you stay in office. How do you pay for it? You raid the treasury, you tax, you borrow. Finally you’re broke and everything falls apart.

RIP Democratic Party. You did it to yourselves.

RIP USA. You did it to yourselves.

There are only two kinds of people… Oh I forgot I already said that.

Magellan, I have fixed your quote here, since you had part of your own reply mixed in with the post you were quoting.

Yeah, I mentioned that in Post 105.

Thanks! Much appreciated.

But are those “Black interests”, or interests that some Black voters may agree with conservatives on? The GOP, on most issues that explicitly have to do with race, is not usually in agreement with the Black community.

Their kids’ educations might be the most important thing, but there is little evidence charter schools are a good solution to the problem. This issue got Michelle Rhee run out of DC. It’s not as clear cut as you want to make it seem.

Is it really? Why can whatever message or stimulus be conveyed through the Black community with such fidelity, but still be inexplicable to conservatives? Maybe it’s less a matter of not being able to be seen, but rather selective blindness on the part of the GOP.

You give them too much credit. If the machine was that successful, they would have put those efforts to better use rather than gaining more Black votes.

Do you reject the incivility of such terms or the accuracy?

Why do you think “skin color” (that’s the wrong way to frame it) would be less subject to this than religion, culture, etc?

Blackness, for lack of a better word, is a more integral and permanent part of identity than poverty is.

The former. I was just pointing out that there IS some alignment. And due to that alignment, one would not expect 95% to vote against it.

I disagree with your “little” evidence. There is plenty of evidence. And Charters are growing in popularity. Many are doing exceptionally well, giving students who wouldn’t ordinarily have it, a good chance of a good education and getting into a really good college.

I absolutely find it puzzling. Mind you, I’m not talking about most Blacks voting Rep, just more than the paltry 5%.

No. They are very good at demonizing Reps. It’s done constantly.

Both! It’s a flat out insult that goes to the heart of a person’s character. And the notion that one must think a certain way due to their skin color is mind numbingly dumb and racist too boot. Just imagine if that proposition came from a White Republican.

Skin color is has almost as little to do with a belief system as hair color or eye color. I say “almost”, because I grant that blackness is more overt and Blacks go through life not completely unaware of the skin color. But once you have people actually looking at the issues and weighing the facts, the 95% number seems quite unnatural.

What I wonder is if of the Blacks that vote, if there history of education is similar to whites that vote. If it is less, I think it wold be safe to assume that there are more low-information voters that are Black than White. And low-information voters aren’t weighing the issues as seriously as more thoughtful voters and, subsequently, are more likely to vote the way their friends vote. No doubt White low-information voters do this as well, but if there is a larger percentage go low information Black voters than White voters, that might help explain the 95% number.

I agree. But that still doesn’t explain 95%. Keep in mind that we have at least a few major issues: religiously, you’d expect more than 5%, especially with the abortion issue; the success of Charters in the inner cities would, you would think, get the Reps more than 5%; wanting to reduce illegal immigration and thus reduce the millions competing for low-skill entry-level jobs should generate more than 5%. Take them all as a whole and the argument gets quite strong.

Many are doing well, but far more are failing or conferring no benefit. As such, it’s not really a comprehensive policy that has improved overall outcomes.

Only if you assume the norm is the rate Whites vote for the GOP. Why can’t I just as easily frame the issue as Whites voting too often for the GOP rather than Blacks voting for them too infrequently?

But if you think that is the case, why as Blacks so susceptible to this brainwashing?

Why is justifiably insulting someone’s character out of bounds?

Is it wrong to think your identity should inform your politics? Could it not be considered incongruous and worthy of critique for a Jew to support Hamas, or for Gays to not support gay marriage. I think your blanket statement is really just an appeal to emotion that lacks context.

“Not completely unaware”? You’re not Black are you? I think this is where your misunderstanding of the issue stems.

It only seems unnatural if you view the two options as (arguably) equally appealing like Coke and Pepsi. Would it be unnatural that 95% prefer chocolate to cigarettes? Or marshmallows to brussel sprouts?

Why would peer pressure affect low information voters more?

You are greatly overestimating the success of charters in inner cities and how much people care about education choices when they are voting.

Your incorrect understanding of this issue has already been explained to you.

It has improved outcomes for many, and in some cases stellar fashion. I’ll admit, I really don’t get the waging of your argument. Inner city schools have gotten worse and worse. We threw money at the problem and it makes no change. Charter schools do a great job of saving many kids of color, but because it may not immediately help them all, we should stop and revert back to doing what? Throwing more money at a problem and seeing the same lack of results? No. I don’t think so. more and more Black parents don’t think so. More of them are become Charter advocates every day. Look to NYC, where the new mayor just overplayed his hand and there has been a backlash from Black parents.

I used the word “immediately” above because the Charters of today help all kids. One, the are leading to more and more charter schools. Two, the more tha happens the weaker the teachers unions become and the greater the likelihood that schools can revert back to institutions that actually educate students. You know, kinda like Charters are doing.

If Whites consistently voted 95% for one of the two major parties I would absolutely think that was “unnatural”. But there is a blatant bias baked into your question: that the “natural” dispersement for voting Rep—simply based on the their positions—is closer to 5% then 50%. If you think that, you should probably rethink it.

  1. They’re human. 2) Peer pressure and the desire to fit in. 3) As I mentioned, my guess is that there is a higher percentage of low-information voters among Blacks. Low-information voters tend to be less educated, and that would align with the demographics. I admit that this is just a guess and I could be wrong about it. Do you agree with the premise of #3. If not, why not?

You’re right, there’s not, in a general sense. If someone is an embezzler, serial adulterer, cat control his temper, is a bully, a cheat, etc., I think it’s fair to take that into consideration. But calling someone an Oreo or an Uncle Tom, simply because of a position political position shared by roughly half of America, is not the same thing. You’re telling him that he must not only identify primarily with his skin color, but that he must agree with other who share that skin color as to how to best craft a future for all Americans, including people of color. You’re assuming that there is zero validity to a particular position and that unless that person with the same skin color agrees with your assessment, and the assessment of the majority of Blacks, that he is morally flawed. Do you not find that objectionable?

You’re missing the point. I do not think it necessarily incongruous for a racial group to align 95% on any specific issue. It’s unnatural when they follow the entire part when for some very important issues, another party is actually better aligned with what you value. If the issue were, say, the abolition of slavery or the right to vote, I would expect unanimity in that voting block.

Huh? If you would reread what I rode I think you’ll see that I’m granting the reality you’re alluding to.

Again, you keep wanting to make this a one issue choice. It is not. Do you not grant that a Black person can hold a very principled position for, for instance, Charter Schools? Can an intelligent Black person share the outlook on abortion that aligns with the Catholic church? Can a person of sound mind believe that the tax system we have is byzantine, and that we’d better off with something much more streamlined, maybe even a Flat Tax or a Fair Tax? The question is not whether you might agree with any of these positions, but can a thoughtful Black person make up his own mind on these matters and others. Your position seems to be a resounding “no”. Even if you don’t meant to answer so directly.

I’d say that when a position isn’t one held due to conviction, it’s easy to be swayed to another position. Do you disagree with that?

Charters continue to do well and keep getting better. Again, just look to NYC. Also, a book I’ve recommended before, “No Excuses”, by Abigail and Stephen Therstrom, which looks at the racial disparity in schools.

You might be part about the second part. But I KNOW that there are White people for whom this is a top issue. Assuming that Blacks feel the same way about their children as White parents do, yes, I assume there there exists a group for whom education is of paramount importance. In fact, I’d say that for someone who is poor and living in an inner city, the education choice is even more important than for some White person living in the suburbs. One reason is that the local school is probably pretty good. And if it’s not great, and that’s important to you, and you have them money, you can send your kid to an even better school. There are parents in communities like Greenwich, New Canaan and Scarsdale who send their kids to private schools. and the schools they’re leaving are excellent. So if I’m a parent who wants the very best for my kid and I live in the inner city and can’t afford Choate, or even Fordham, that Charter school my kid MAY be able to go to is WAY more important to me than Choate is to the parent from Larchmont.

Are thou funking kidding me with this response? :roll eyes:

While failing charters have only made the problem worse. Again, it’s not really a comprehensive solution, and has usually just been more about undermining unions and the public sector.

We didn’t really throw money at the problem in general, and specifically with an eye toward using that money effectively.

What is inherently different about a charter school that cannot be replicated at a public school?

Look at DC where charter schools score have largely been uneven, cheating scandals have been numerous, and the mayor who last championed the idea was voted out of office by Black people largely based on those efforts.

Which is really what this is all about- destroying teacher’s unions.

Being White generally matters less and affects your everyday experience less than being Black. They are not really comparable in terms of how it informs your experiences and shapes your character.

No, you are assuming the opposite. My point was that you can’t say something is unnatural without implicitly arguing that something else is natural. If 90% of people like chocolate, is that unnatural? What about if only 5% of people like durian? I am not saying the GOP should only receive 5% of the vote in a natural setting, I am saying that you can’t argue such a result is unnatural based on how White people vote. For example, 71% of Latinos and 73% of Asians voted for Obama in 2012. He got 39% of the White vote and 93% of the Black vote. White voters are further from the mean than Black voters are. Why isn’t the issue that White voters are “unnatural” given their greater deviation from the norm?

Why do you think more information would lead Blacks to vote for the GOP, and why do you think the percentage of LIV is greater amongst those Blacks who vote for the Dems rather than the GOP?

Why is it wrong to castigate someone for not identifying more with any given attribute they have; especially one that generally impacts their life to a great extent. Should Israelis not criticize other Israelis who agree with Hamas or Iran?

No, I am saying the critique is what it is, and it’s no worse than 100 others that are lobbed at politicians for what they believe.

But doesn’t the fact that millions of independent people came to the opposite conclusion you did mean maybe your premise is flawed? That maybe they have done the calculus and decided choice A is objectively better than B?

I am saying your reluctant agreement makes it clear you don’t understand what being Black is like, or how it shapes the world we live in.

Sure, just like someone can view brussel sprouts as objectively healthier and more nutritious than marshmallows, yet like them much less. Why do you think recognizing the differences in those characteristics makes the conclusion invalid?

Why do you think information translates to conviction?

So do public schools. Again, what is it you think makes charters so special?

Probably true, but given that plenty of Dems agree with charter schools, it’s often not a point of differentiation.

No. The idea that you can sell Black people on the whole Mexicans are stealing your jobs is problematic for a number of reasons.


I’m happy to engage with you, but that necessitates that you do a better job of answering what I ask of you and state your positions, as well. If you’d like to take another stab at your answers, I’ll look forward to reading them. If not, well, then I won’t be able to, will I?

I’ll wait.

Keep waiting. If you have some kind of reading comprehension problem that prevents you from understanding what I wrote, then maybe you should get that checked out. I answered your questions whereas you have answered none of mine. You keep arguing based on faulty premises, then when it’s pointed out to you, you resort to nonsense like this.