# How rulings for students rights backfire **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771 "2011-04-26T14:51:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/1 "2011-04-26T14:51:04Z")
There have been several high-profile cases of children being taken away from public schools by police recently. [This article expresses some of the same things that I’ve always felt about these situations.](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-25/school-kids-in-handcuffs-show-teacher-bondage-commentary-by-amity-shlaes.html) The basic argument is that due to lawsuits, legislation, and bureaucratic meddling, teachers no longer feel that they have the authority to control their own classrooms. When a situation with an out-of-control student occurs, the teacher now automatically involves the principal or some other head authority at the school. But the principal doesn’t feel comfortable handling the situation either for fear of violating some law or ruling, so he or she has a motivation to call in someone from the next level up to deal with the situation. As the article says: > [@](#): > > Teachers, Howard says, now ask themselves: “Why take the risk of legal hearings or threats by an angry parent?” It’s easier to dial 911. The child’s rights may win in such a case, but the child does not. In a child’s life, a good lawyer can’t substitute for a good teacher. > > The perversity here is that laws meant to protect children acquaint them far too early with police stations, courtrooms and handcuffs. You don’t have to bring back the paddle or racism to undo this dynamic. All you have to do is give educators the chance to educate. It’s time. Just ask a teacher. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/2 "2011-04-26T15:00:38Z")
What is the specific thesis for debate? Yes, actions can have unintended consequences and some teachers and administrators may want to pass the buck and get others to deal with potential problems. What do you want to debate about that? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/3 "2011-04-26T15:06:06Z")
> [@](#): > > You don’t have to bring back the paddle or racism to undo this dynamic. All you have to do is give educators the chance to educate. It’s time. Just ask a teacher. Could this be any more vague? We don’t need the paddle or racism, but we do need educators to do…what, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/4 "2011-04-26T15:10:11Z")
Student rights and the mainstreaming of kids with learning disabilities is not responsible for stupidity like zero-tolerance policies and teachers calling the cops when a child has a tantrum. The argument in the column is absolute crap. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/5 "2011-04-26T15:14:31Z")
The problem is and was the parents…and maybe a few bad teachers. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/6 "2011-04-26T15:26:25Z")
The article is poorly written, but brings up the question of what appropriate, applicable discipline is available to the public school teacher. My sons have had their share of bench time at recess (we joke about adding a brass plaque when the youngest moves onto middle school). That seems to work sufficiently in our suburban upper middle class school system. However, the article cherry picks some anecdotes to claim that in some cases rather than punish a kid the teacher gives up and dumps it all on the Principal. So - is this is real issue, or just good column fodder. If it IS a real issue, do we need to better train our schools on what they can do? Do we need to open up more types of punishment? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/7 "2011-04-26T15:28:30Z")
I can see a point there. The _Goss v. Lopez_ decision seems unwise - requiring a hearing for any sort of suspension seems to go too far. Zero-tolerance wasn’t required by this decision, but it springs from a similar mindset that attempts to remove responsible decision making from any administrative level and turn discipline into a mere filling out of forms and imposition of standardized sentences. Once this is done, teachers have little incentive to stick their necks out - it isn’t their decision anymore and their judgment is pretty much ignored. Why not pass the buck to counselors, principals or cops and let them deal with the repercussions when parents inevitably complain? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/8 "2011-04-26T15:33:40Z")
I’m okay with bringing back the paddle. I’d be _more_ okay with dividing students by maturity and ability rather than age, but that’s more cumbersome. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/9 "2011-04-26T15:41:27Z")
The article is pretty crummy. First, we have three cases of kids being arrested by police in a country of 350 million people. Its not really clear that this is some sort of epidemic. I imagine there are several hundred thousands of kids having tantrums in schools across the country right now, its pretty obvious that in almost all cases, the teachers deal with it themselves. Secondly, she acts like not only calling the cops is some sort of crazy extra measure (which it is) but getting the principal involved is as well. But sending problem children to the Principal has been a pretty standard proceedure for a long time. It was true when I was a kid in the 80’s, and was apparently common enough before that that Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes could get sent there and readers would understand that it was an extra disiplinary measure. It makes sense, since a teacher has a classroom full of other kids to deal with. Its hardly some new innovation created due to more litigious parents. Thirdly, its not really clear how the various Supreme Court cases she cites have anything to do with arresting second graders. No court is going to find that a second grader having a tantrum is “exercising her freedom of expression”. She has some argument about “student rights”, but its so vague as to be meaningless. What specifically are teachers worried about. Finally, the idea that getting the cops involved is somehow seen as an avenue to _minimize_ the chance that the courts will be involved is crazy. Having someone arrested is not the course you take if you want to avoid having to deal with the law. The article even mentions that some of the kids who were arrested are talking to ACLU type groups. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/10 "2011-04-26T16:37:46Z")
While this sort of thing isn’t common, I could agree that it is a consequence of some bad policies. However, I disagree with the OP that it is inherently connected to decisions about “students’ rights”. I think it is more about the cowardice of school administrators, coupled with the fact that any parent can sue a school regardless of how uncontrollable their kids are. I was a teacher for ten years and in three school districts. Each district was very different in economic stature, but the one thing they had in common was that the administrators were scared of the parents. Teachers were encouraged to solve all classroom problems themselves and involving administrators was generally frowned upon. That’s not to say it was against the rules - there was nothing stopping a teacher from sending a kid to the principal. But the kid would often be sent back with no action having been taken, and the teacher might have a point against them when it came time for tenure or transfers. Administrators were scared silly of the parents, especially in the district with many well-to-do people. When a parent called or showed up complaining about a teacher, I don’t recall the administration often taking the teacher’s side. Any legal action taken against the school, even if the school were to eventually win, would cost a lot of money. So they avoided conflicts with parents whenever possible. I can only guess that by involving the police in these incidents, the administrators believe they are involving a somewhat neutral third party observer / arbitrator. Perhaps they also hope the parents are less likely to take legal action when police are involved. I’m not saying these are reasonable assumptions, but I’ve seen school administrators engage in some pretty foolish thinking. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/11 "2011-04-26T16:51:43Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > There have been several high-profile cases of children being taken away from public schools by police recently. It’s been many years and I know things probably have changed. However, when I taught high school, behavioral problems by boys were much easier to handle then by girls. With boys you could take them aside in private and talk with them. Girls…that was dangerous. You always had to have an observer with you when talking with them. Much harder to get them to open up and/or discipline them. Therefore, boys could be easier managed at a ‘lower level’ of the hierarchy. Girls…everything got shoved up to the top real quick and so punishments were much harsher than they should have been (my opinion). I still remember when a girl kept getting in-school suspensions and was threatened with expulsion. One afternoon, she wasn’t allowed to go with the school to something as punishment and she ended up in my computer lab for the day. We had a long talk (her idea) and she never was a real problem after that. She would never have been that open if another teacher was there. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/12 "2011-04-26T17:06:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Could this be any more vague? We don’t need the paddle or racism, but we do need educators to do…what, exactly? Verbal abuse and sexism? ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/13 "2011-04-26T17:37:43Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > The article is poorly written, but brings up the question of what appropriate, applicable discipline is available to the public school teacher. > > My sons have had their share of bench time at recess (we joke about adding a brass plaque when the youngest moves onto middle school). That seems to work sufficiently in our suburban upper middle class school system. > > However, the article cherry picks some anecdotes to claim that in some cases rather than punish a kid the teacher gives up and dumps it all on the Principal. > > So - is this is real issue, or just good column fodder. If it IS a real issue, do we need to better train our schools on what they can do? Do we need to open up more types of punishment? This is a real issue. It may not happen frequently, but it isn’t infrequent either. Our teachers are trained on what they can do - and that is that they can’t touch a student. Period. So when a student is out of control and posing a risk to themselves and/or other students or even the teacher, they only recourse they have is to get the police involved. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/14 "2011-04-26T17:52:33Z")
> [@spazattak](#): > > Our teachers are trained on what they can do - and that is that they can’t touch a student. Period. I wonder about this. When I was a teacher I was never told I could not touch a student. I was certainly warned about the consequences of inappropriately touching. But once when the question was put directly to an administrator it was conceded that (at least in my state) there was no law that prevented a teacher from touching a student. Indeed, there could be times when a teacher was required to, such as to prevent a student harming himself or others. I was once asked by an administrator to restrain a child who was out of control. While I wasn’t crazy about that situation - I had no formal training in such things - it clearly needed to be done. IANAL, so I’d be curious to hear about this from someone more knowledgeable. My guess is that schools may be within their rights to set a general policy of no touching, but that may not hold the same weight as a legal prohibition. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/15 "2011-04-26T18:33:53Z")
Most people that I know that started out teaching secondary education have gotten out as soon as they could. Either their spouse afforded them opportunity to quit, or they found equal or better paying jobs. Those that still teach can’t afford to leave or have no better opportunities and justify it as “teaching is their calling”. Mind you, these are people that I know that are or were teachers. I’m sure there are exceptions out there. The primary reason they have all left teaching or wish they could, is their inability to be as effective teachers as they thought they could be when they were studying to become teachers. They spend a significant amount of their time dealing with the disciplinary issues from about 1-2% of their students and do not feel they have sufficient time to truly teach the kids that really want to be there. When they meet with the parents of the students that are disciplinary problems they get no support and generally combative responses. A few bad apples can truly spoil the whole barrel. ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/16 "2011-04-26T19:57:56Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > I wonder about this. > > When I was a teacher I was never told I could not touch a student. I was certainly warned about the consequences of inappropriately touching. But once when the question was put directly to an administrator it was conceded that (at least in my state) there was no law that prevented a teacher from touching a student. Indeed, there could be times when a teacher was required to, such as to prevent a student harming himself or others. > > I was once asked by an administrator to restrain a child who was out of control. While I wasn’t crazy about that situation - I had no formal training in such things - it clearly needed to be done. > > IANAL, so I’d be curious to hear about this from someone more knowledgeable. My guess is that schools may be within their rights to set a general policy of no touching, but that may not hold the same weight as a legal prohibition. This is certainly not the case anymore - a teacher generally needs to be trained and/or certified in methods to incapacitate students without harming them. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/17 "2011-04-26T20:03:50Z")
> [@spazattak](#): > > This is certainly not the case anymore - a teacher generally needs to be trained and/or certified in methods to incapacitate students without harming them. Not to be rude, but… cite? I mean, it sounds reasonable. But the incident I described took place only three years ago. And I did request training afterward, but nothing came of it. So again I ask, what can a teacher do and not do according to state laws, not school policy? ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/18 "2011-04-26T20:29:41Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > Not to be rude, but… cite? > > I mean, it sounds reasonable. But the incident I described took place only three years ago. And I did request training afterward, but nothing came of it. So again I ask, what can a teacher do and not do according to state laws, not school policy? Local school policy is just as effective of stripping teachers of options as state or federal law. If you disobey the policy, your job is in jeopardy. You also have to remember the generic [child](http://www.wbir.com/news/article/166459/2/Sevier-Co-teacher-faces-child-abuse-charges) [abuse](http://seymourherald.com/news/2011/apr/19/teacher-charged-with-child-abu/) [charges](http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705371005/Wasatch-High-coach-charged-with-child-abuse-appears-in-court.html). Amity Shales is a hack and the points she uses to back up her argument are crap (the over-regulation of student-rights) - but the problem she brings up does exist. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/19 "2011-04-26T20:58:20Z")
> [@spazattak](#): > > Local school policy is just as effective of stripping teachers of options as state or federal law. If you disobey the policy, your job is in jeopardy. If fired without proper cause a teacher would have redress through the courts. A school policy that is overridden by law would certainly qualify as without cause. > [@spazattak](#): > > You also have to remember the generic [child](http://www.wbir.com/news/article/166459/2/Sevier-Co-teacher-faces-child-abuse-charges) [abuse](http://seymourherald.com/news/2011/apr/19/teacher-charged-with-child-abu/) [charges](http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705371005/Wasatch-High-coach-charged-with-child-abuse-appears-in-court.html). I don’t really see how those cites address simple and seemingly appropriate touching by teachers. Suppose a kid is misbehaving and I guide him to another area by taking him by the hand, or by putting a hand on his shoulder? You said a teacher can’t touch a student - period. In my experience that’s just not true and I’m hoping someone with legal knowledge on the subject will weigh in here. ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771/20 "2011-04-26T21:43:07Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > If fired without proper cause a teacher would have redress through the courts. A school policy that is overridden by law would certainly qualify as without cause. I don’t think you understand the nature of board policies. If they are broken, you get disciplined. They are permitted to be, and are of necessity more restrictive and specific than law. It is the very nature of policy. The board is given the authority in statute to enact policy and require their staff to abide by it. Policy works in conjunction with the law - it is not opposed to it. > [@](#): > > I don’t really see how those cites address simple and seemingly appropriate touching by teachers. Suppose a kid is misbehaving and I guide him to another area by taking him by the hand, or by putting a hand on his shoulder? You said a teacher can’t touch a student - period. In my experience that’s just not true and I’m hoping someone with legal knowledge on the subject will weigh in here. I have seen teachers get written up for doing exactly what you describe. I’m sorry that I can’t cite news articles about this happening. It is generally disciplinary stuff that happens privately within a school district and not something that makes the 5 o’clock news. If you don’t believe me, I encourage you to ask other teachers. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-rulings-for-students-rights-backfire/579771.md?page=2)