# How safe is it to be Sunni in a Shiite country and vice versa? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2016, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362 "2016-01-06T21:44:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![botsgotme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@botsgotme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/botsgotme)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/21 "2016-01-09T13:15:18Z")
> [@race\_to\_the\_bottom](#): > > These people lived mostly peacefully together for hundreds of years. It was Western imperialism which worked to create divisions to better rule over people. British imperialism did the same in India. Yeah, right…ask an Alawite what its like to live where Sunnis predominate? Or an Ismaili where there are lots of Wahabists. generally, minority sects of islam are subject to quite a bit of persecution (along with Christians and Jews). take Iran (Shia); that country once had large communities of Christians and Jews…most of them have left…I wonder why? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/22 "2016-01-09T13:26:18Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > Yeah, right… Yes right, the historical islamic governments did not have great interest in small theological differences, you repeat nothing more than superficial stereotypes. > [@](#): > > generally, minority sects of islam are subject to quite a bit of persecution (along with Christians and Jews). As this is **GQ** you can of course provide the substantive citations on the historical pattern We have already seen on many threads the thin knowledge displayed in your posting. Wondering about the recent decline in the minorities in the Middle east in th edecades since the colonial rule, minorities quite substantial under the classical rule for over a thousand years (contra the experience under the western christians up to the 19th century, who liquidated minorities) makes his point (although I think it is stated in a somewhat exagerated). ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/23 "2016-01-09T13:42:15Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > In the US, I’ve known Shia & Sunni Muslim co-workers who got along just great. > > Colonial powers–or others seeking political advantage–have been known to encourage sectarian differences. Divide & conquer. Beyond the colonial regimes, there is the change in the conception of what the loyalty group means, with the exposure to the ideas developed out of the western europe of the ethnic-nation. This was foreign to the Islamic world and only began to gain a traction in the late 19th century. In the region of the Gulf and the Levant due to the great politicisation these last decades it becomes a problem, where 60 years ago it was not really. The illustration of this recency (contra the interventions of many posters here who base their knowledge on superficial western tv reporting it is clear, and make the sweeping ahistorical claims without shame), is the [1960-1970ss Yemeni civil-war c](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Yemen_Civil_War)ase where the Kingdom of the Ibn Saud allied with the Shia royalists against the Sunni anti-royalists factions (supported by the Egypt). This in the living memory. You can also see this in the way the pan arabist Baath parties came together in the 1950s Levant where it was not a problem to have the senior leadership and members being from the Shia, from the Alawi from the Sunni backgrounds - and the later dominance of the Sunni in the Iraq and the Alawi in the Syria within the Baath party arising not from specific sectarian decisions but from the reversion to the family and the clan networks when the specific individuals made - for their individual power - internal coups for control. there are numerous examples that the supposed eternal sectarian between the various shia and the various sunni divide is not eternal and has varied over the time. In the North Africa no one very much cares about the Shia and the Sunni divide (although we have the Kharijis). ETA I do not think any maghrebi could tell if someone is shia or sunni unless they had spent much time in the gulf. In the Middle east region now they care, but the very mixedness of the populations that is persisting and making the civil wars complex shows the idea of exclusivity is not one eternal nor that it was in the past dominant. A shia arab traveling to North africa, no one will care or even notice. In the Syria or the Lebanon or the Iraq, they may (although in the Iraq there are tribes that are mixed Sunni and Shia appartenance so making ambiguos any name affiliation). In the Gulf now they may care if you are a National but in practice if you are not a National (a citizen), but only a guest worker, they do not at all - if you are a Lebanese Shia or Sunni or a Pakistani Sunni or Shia, your Lebaneseness or your Pakistaniness counts much more. the care and paranoia of the Saudis about Shia is mostly about their regional fragility and the weak legitimacy even now of the Ibn Saud. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/24 "2016-01-09T13:49:41Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > … It seems to me that there is an economic class tension buried somewhere in all this, but I can’t quite articulate it better than that. much of the current ‘religious’ conflict in the region is very economic stress related. If you look even to the Brotherhood in the Egypt, you can tell by names that many of them come from the families of the previoulsy rural, whose ascent is blocked by the old corrupt elites, as an example. > [@Velocity](#): > > Now, what negative perceptions do they hold exactly? There is no single answer to this, most of us outside of the Levant and the Gulf do not care or even have any great opinion. If you ask do Iraqi shia or Iraqi arab sunni (or Syrian, etc) have X opinion, you can have some valid answer - but there is no religion wide answer ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/25 "2016-01-09T14:54:35Z")
To further what **Ramira** said, here in Pakistan, my own family has both Shia and Sunni members. My father was acquianted with someone for over three decades, he did not know said person was Shia until the man’s funeral. A lot of the time you won’t even known the persons sect. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/26 "2016-01-09T15:14:04Z")
Yes, it is a long time since I have spent great time in the ‘Middle east’ but in the 1990s it was not obvious who was the shia or the sunni unless you had one of those rare names that is associated with on the great religious family, even then it is not 100% clear. For maghrebis to the Gulf the discourses about the Sunni and the Shia is just weird and foreign. The idea that is often assumed in the Western writing that the Shia and the Sunni divide is just like the Protestant and the Catholic is to me a false one as historically except perhaps along the divide of the Persian and the arab zones, there was never a great divide or great doctrinal fight. The islamic world lacked any real equivalent of the idea of or the applied practice of the Inquisition or its protestant equivalents. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/27 "2016-01-09T16:00:07Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Just out of curiosity but was your family middle class or better? The reason I ask is Protestant-Catholic friction used to be a thin cover for class and ethnic warfare. > [@Ramira](#): > > … > The idea that is often assumed in the Western writing that the Shia and the Sunni divide is just like the Protestant and the Catholic is to me a false one as historically except perhaps along the divide of the Persian and the arab zones, there was never a great divide or great doctrinal fight. The islamic world lacked any real equivalent of the idea of or the applied practice of the Inquisition or its protestant equivalents. It’s natural, I think, to compare the Shia/Sunni divide with the Troubles of Ireland because both divides involve(d) a complex interplay of religious, ethnic, economic, and political issues. It’s almost never _only_ about religion (because if it is, then the USA would not be able to have so much Catholic/Protestant peace and cooperation), but religion tends to get the blame for causing the strife. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/28 "2016-01-09T16:37:38Z")
For the specific yes, but the problem is for people udnerstanding the shia and the sunni structurally through the lens of the catholic and the protestant. like the struggle in people not understanding easily that islam lacks “clerics” since there is no structure for them (only preachers, that is a closer idea). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/29 "2016-01-10T01:55:35Z")
“Ten Ways on How Not To Think About the Iran/Saudi Conflict” — [https://www.onbeing.org/blog/omid-safi-ten-ways-on-how-not-to-think-about-the-iransaudi-conflict/8315](https://www.onbeing.org/blog/omid-safi-ten-ways-on-how-not-to-think-about-the-iransaudi-conflict/8315) > [@](#): > > \*\*One. \*\*In order to understand this conflict, do not start with Sunni/Shi‘a seventh century succession disputes to Prophet. This is a modern dispute, not one whose answers you are going to find in pre-modern books of religious history and theology. Think about how absurd it would be if we were discussing a political conflict between the U.S. and Russia, and instead of having political scientists we brought on people to talk about the historical genesis of the Greek Orthodox Church. ---
**Author:** ![pompeybear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8c91f0/32.png) [@pompeybear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pompeybear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/30 "2016-01-10T02:43:19Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > How would a “mixed” foreign tourist be seen in those days in terms of alignment? Would it be based on a perception (right or wrong) of the person’s ancestry? Based on the person’s current religious affiliation? Left alone unless obviously violent? Free-for-all target? My understanding is that nobody really cared about the religion or ancestry of foreign tourists. The Protestant/Catholicism thing was essentially about loyalties. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/31 "2016-01-10T11:22:19Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > take Iran (Shia); that country once had large communities of Christians and Jews…most of them have left…I wonder why? Going by [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iran#Current_situation), most Iranian Christians did _not_ leave in the wake of the revolution, but rather stayed in the country. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/32 "2016-01-10T19:06:34Z")
> [@pompeybear](#): > > My understanding is that nobody really cared about the religion or ancestry of foreign tourists. The Protestant/Catholicism thing was essentially about loyalties. So does the same thing apply to Sunni/Shia relations? E.g. if a Sunni extremist in Saudi Arabia sees a Shi’ite walking down the street, is he likely to be more concerned with “OMG heretic must die!!11!1one” or is he likely to be more concerned that said Shi’ite ought to be killed because he is likely to support Iran? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/33 "2016-01-11T10:42:07Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > So does the same thing apply to Sunni/Shia relations? E.g. if a Sunni extremist in Saudi Arabia sees a Shi’ite walking down the street, is he likely to be more concerned with “OMG heretic must die!!11!1one” or is he likely to be more concerned that said Shi’ite ought to be killed because he is likely to support Iran? A Shia does not have a forehead stamp saying “Shia”. Extremists tend to target what are specifically places of worship or markets in homogenous areas. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/34 "2016-01-11T16:54:37Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I remember it was said that Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland could tell in an instant… An old joke from the Troubles: A small, well-dressed man enters a Belfast pub late one night. Everyone glowers at him, and a huge bruiser soon gets up, walks over to him and asks threateningly, “Are you a Catholic or a Protestant?” “Why, neither,” the new guy says, sipping his beer. “I’m Jewish.” The bruiser is a bit taken aback at first, but then he snarls, “Are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?” ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/35 "2016-01-11T17:14:17Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > A Shia does not have a forehead stamp saying “Shia”. Extremists tend to target what are specifically places of worship or markets in homogenous areas. Right, but would (on average) those places be targeted because the extremist can’t stand to see heretics around or because they can’t stand to see people who might sell out the country to Iran? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/36 "2016-01-11T17:43:39Z")
I don’t exactly make it a point to hang around extremists and share their views. Suspected motivations for extremist attacks have been all over the place, from killing “heretics” to “easiest target we could find” to “embarsse the government because the a minoirty community got hit:”. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/37 "2016-01-12T10:00:22Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > To further what **Ramira** said, here in Pakistan, my own family has both Shia and Sunni members. My father was acquianted with someone for over three decades, he did not know said person was Shia until the man’s funeral. A lot of the time you won’t even known the persons sect. That must explain why [so many Shia](http://www.presstv.in/Detail/2015/06/06/414561/Shia-Muslims-Pakistan-Jinnah-Institute-Salman-Zaidi-Quetta-Karachi-Peshawar) get murdered by extremists in Pakistan then > [@](#): > > The study, conducted by the Jinnah Institute, an Islamabad-based think tank, reveals unprecedented targeted killings of Shia Muslims in Pakistan in 2012 and 2015. > > It says some 1,900 Shia Muslims have been killed in bomb blasts and targeted killings in Pakistan in the past three years ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/38 "2016-01-12T10:16:50Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > An old joke from the Troubles: > > A small, well-dressed man enters a Belfast pub late one night. Everyone glowers at him, and a huge bruiser soon gets up, walks over to him and asks threateningly, “Are you a Catholic or a Protestant?” > > “Why, neither,” the new guy says, sipping his beer. “I’m Jewish.” > > The bruiser is a bit taken aback at first, but then he snarls, “Are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?” A better punchline to this is “Well that must make me the luckiest Palestinian in Belfast!” ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/39 "2016-01-12T10:21:13Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > That must explain why [so many Shia](http://www.presstv.in/Detail/2015/06/06/414561/Shia-Muslims-Pakistan-Jinnah-Institute-Salman-Zaidi-Quetta-Karachi-Peshawar) get murdered by extremists in Pakistan then Yes it likely does, as just like in the Iraq, the extemists attack places of congregation to drive wedges and spread distrust, to force their views. something like what the extremist hindus are doing in the India now, against the religious minorities. It is sad, the humans condition. Beni Adam, Beni Adam. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/40 "2016-01-12T10:34:02Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > something like what the extremist hindus are doing in the India now, against the religious minorities. Who the what now? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362.md?page=3)