# How safe is it to be Sunni in a Shiite country and vice versa? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2016, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362 "2016-01-06T21:44:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/41 "2016-01-12T11:05:27Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > That must explain why [so many Shia](http://www.presstv.in/Detail/2015/06/06/414561/Shia-Muslims-Pakistan-Jinnah-Institute-Salman-Zaidi-Quetta-Karachi-Peshawar) get murdered by extremists in Pakistan then PressTV? Seriously, **bldysabba** , if you want to post anti-Pakistan stuff, then there is plenty of stuff on actual reputable website like BBC and CNN rather than Irans propaganda machine. Between Shia’s constitute about 20-25% of the Pakistan population (the number varies since many people who are products of mixed marriages , might not express a preference). According to latest figures, in the last 5 years, about [10,000 civilians have been killed in the insurgency](http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/pakistan/database/casualties.htm). So, the ratio is about the same, accepting 1900 dead. And thats after factoring in targets which were specificly sectarian. (I have not counted the Security Forces dead, but as Shia’s tend to be over-represented in the Security Forces, the ratio would probably be higher). ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/42 "2016-01-12T11:46:23Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > PressTV? Seriously, **bldysabba** , if you want to post anti-Pakistan stuff, then there is plenty of stuff on actual reputable website like BBC and CNN rather than Irans propaganda machine. > > Between Shia’s constitute about 20-25% of the Pakistan population (the number varies since many people who are products of mixed marriages , might not express a preference). > > According to latest figures, in the last 5 years, about [10,000 civilians have been killed in the insurgency](http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/pakistan/database/casualties.htm). So, the ratio is about the same, accepting 1900 dead. And thats after factoring in targets which were specificly sectarian. > > (I have not counted the Security Forces dead, but as Shia’s tend to be over-represented in the Security Forces, the ratio would probably be higher). I have no idea where presstv is based, but they use an Islamabad based think tank’s (Jinnah Institute) research. Is that not credible enough? As for Pakistan’s Shia population, you claim 20-25%, but the [majority](http://www.pewforum.org/2009/10/07/mapping-the-global-muslim-population/) [of](http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t125/e1809?_hi=1&_pos=1) sources that I can find puts it between 10-15%. No estimate I’ve seen puts it at above 20%, and only one source extended the range to 10-20%. The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan puts the number of Shia killed in Pakistan in 2013 at 700. Your source gives total dead at 3000. That’s 23%. The Jinnah Institute’s number of dead 2012-2015 also gives a similar ratio. That’s a significant over-representation if we go by the most common estimates of Shia population in Pakistan. I don’t want to post anti-Pakistan stuff, but I find you tend to white-wash too much in your posts about Pakistan, so I provide a balance 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/43 "2016-01-12T12:23:45Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I have no idea where presstv is based, but they use an Islamabad based think tank’s (Jinnah Institute) research. Is that not credible enough? > > As for Pakistan’s Shia population, you claim 20-25%, but the [majority](http://www.pewforum.org/2009/10/07/mapping-the-global-muslim-population/) [of](http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t125/e1809?_hi=1&_pos=1) sources that I can find puts it between 10-15%. No estimate I’ve seen puts it at above 20%, and only one source extended the range to 10-20%. > > The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan puts the number of Shia killed in Pakistan in 2013 at 700. Your source gives total dead at 3000. That’s 23%. The Jinnah Institute’s number of dead 2012-2015 also gives a similar ratio. That’s a significant over-representation if we go by the most common estimates of Shia population in Pakistan. The Pakistan government does not as a matter of policy ask the question in census, but, according to Vali Nasr; the number is approximatley 40 million out of 170 million total. The differing numbers are dependent on what is counted as Shia, Ismailis for instance are sometimes counted and sometimes not. You really need to read the whole source, identify it and its bias and what exactly it is reporting. The Jinnah Institute is a well known NGO. [Nothing on their website](http://jinnah-institute.org/)and publication reproducers the above at all. The Salman Zaidi quoted seems to no longer be [associated with them](http://jinnah-institute.org/the-jinnah-institute-team/) at all. Nor does they note their terminology, how they came up with the numbers, what they count as “Shia” what they count as targeted killings, rather then where the sect was an incidental issue. In other words, its not something which can be relied upon, without further clarification > [@](#): > > I don’t want to post anti-Pakistan stuff, but I find you tend to white-wash too much in your posts about Pakistan, so I provide a balance 🙂 I don’t think so. This is the second time in two days that you have excitedly posted something based solely upon the headline without first taking a deeper appreciation of the contents and your source. You don’t provide a “balance” by any definition you provide links to bolster you argument. We can do that all day. ---
**Author:** ![botsgotme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@botsgotme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/botsgotme)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/44 "2016-01-12T14:18:40Z")
tell it to the Shiite victims of the bombing in Iraq. And, 12 people were killed in a bombing in Istanbul. Yeah, the Sunnis and Shia are buddy-buddy! ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/45 "2016-01-12T14:32:37Z")
This is GQ ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/46 "2016-01-12T14:41:43Z")
This is probably better suited to Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/47 "2016-01-12T16:02:10Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > A better punchline to this is “Well that must make me the luckiest Palestinian in Belfast!” I laughed. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/48 "2016-01-12T16:02:12Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Who the what now? The [this](http://www.outlookindia.com/article/the-rise-of-hindutva-terrorism-/265400) and [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Christian_violence_in_India). > [@bldysabba](#): > > I have no idea where presstv is based PressTV is the international channel of the state-run Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting, and is based in Tehran. They have a fondness for [making stuff up](https://web.archive.org/web/20071007150744/http://www.macleans.ca/world/global/article.jsp?content=20070730_107340_107340) and [citing deranged conspiracy theorists like David “Queen Elizabeth II is a shapeshifting alien lizard” Icke](https://web.archive.org/web/20120816055120/http://www.presstv.ir/detail/255920.html). ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/49 "2016-01-12T16:27:41Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > This is probably better suited to Great Debates. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator What debate is there? Three are people who have provided some actual answers and then there is just drive-by ignorant ranting. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/50 "2016-01-12T18:46:01Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > And, 12 people were killed in a bombing in Istanbul. Yeah, the Sunnis and Shia are buddy-buddy! What are you on about? That bombing was neither Sunnis targeting Shias, nor Shias targeting Sunnis. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/51 "2016-01-12T19:29:38Z")
Drive by fact free ranting. I do not know why colibri thought there is any debate. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/52 "2016-01-13T00:41:03Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > PressTV? Seriously, **bldysabba** , if you want to post anti-Pakistan stuff, then there is plenty of stuff on actual reputable website like BBC and CNN rather than Irans propaganda machine. > > Between Shia’s constitute about 20-25% of the Pakistan population (the number varies since many people who are products of mixed marriages , might not express a preference). > > According to latest figures, in the last 5 years, about [10,000 civilians have been killed in the insurgency](http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/pakistan/database/casualties.htm). So, the ratio is about the same, accepting 1900 dead. And thats after factoring in targets which were specificly sectarian. > > (I have not counted the Security Forces dead, but as Shia’s tend to be over-represented in the Security Forces, the ratio would probably be higher). [Party to Genocide: It is no longer possible to call Shia killings the result of a sectarian war](http://www.thefridaytimes.com/tft/party-to-genocide/) > [@](#): > > Shia genocide has for long been dubbed a ‘sectarian conflict’ – implying that it’s a two-way war– and has been showcased as a legacy of the Zia era and a corollary of the Saudi-Iran proxy war. While the proliferation of Deobandi madrassas aggravated the conflict in the 1980s, the first act of Shia genocide after Pakistan’s creation can be traced all the way back to 1963’s Therih massacre. Dubbing it a sectarian war, despite the prodigiously skewed numbers, would have bordered on veracity till the 1990s when the Shia militant organisation Sipah-e-Muhammad targeted anti-Shia organisations as a response to the manoeuvres of the Malik Ishaq led Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LeJ) that was formed in 1995, and SSP. Even so there are no indiscriminate attacks attributed to Sipah-e-Muhammad that was banned along with other terrorist organisations in 2001 by Pervez Musharraf. Since 2001 the ‘sectarian war’ has quite unambiguously transformed into Shia genocide, especially after the advent of Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) as a major terrorist organisation. > > As Imambargahs and Shia processions have regularly become targets of bombings over the past decade or so, our media continues to pay lip service to the outdated claims of the Shia killings being a part of a sectarian proxy war. And so even though there are Shia killers, murdering the Shia for being Shia, using the word ‘Shia’ when a member of the community is targeted owing to their faith, has become a media taboo ostensibly to not ‘fuel’ the non-existent ‘sectarian conflict’. > > As Pakistan collectively witnesses ethnic cleansing the bystanders – hordes and hordes of them, including the media – won’t muster the ‘courage’ needed to call a spade a spade. Over 20,000 Shia killings and apparently there still are question marks over it being a veritable genocide. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/53 "2016-01-13T03:26:46Z")
Yeah, maybe the Opinion piece would like to show where it gets its numbers from? While every death is a tragedy and the state has been derelict in clamping down on these organisations until recently, even if the numbers are accepted, 20,000 over 70 years in a population of 40 million is not genocide. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/54 "2016-01-13T06:39:46Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The Pakistan government does not as a matter of policy ask the question in census, but, according to Vali Nasr; the number is approximatley 40 million out of 170 million total. The differing numbers are dependent on what is counted as Shia, Ismailis for instance are sometimes counted and sometimes not. The only cite I can find for Vali Nasr put the population of Shias in Pakistan at 30 million in 2006. [Cite](https://web.archive.org/web/20120914193938/http://www.carnegiecouncil.org/studio/transcripts/5400.html) > [@](#): > > You really need to read the whole source, identify it and its bias and what exactly it is reporting. The Jinnah Institute is a well known NGO. [Nothing on their website](http://jinnah-institute.org/)and publication reproducers the above at all. On the contrary, they have the number on their [website](http://jinnah-institute.org/violence-against-the-shia-community-in-pakistan-2012-2015/) as well. So if you’re ok with their credibility, then the number is fine. If you’re only ok with the credibility of sources that show Shias are not being disproportionately targeted in Pakistan, then \. > [@A\_isha](#): > > The [this](http://www.outlookindia.com/article/the-rise-of-hindutva-terrorism-/265400) and [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Christian_violence_in_India). Ah. I get it now. Two bombings nine years ago(the perpetrators of which were caught) and vandalism against churches in India is suddenly equivalent to the thousands of killings every year in Pakistan. It strikes me as a particularly rich irony that Muslims are safer by a large margin in India than they are in Pakistan, a country created explicitly to safeguard them. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/55 "2016-01-13T06:57:02Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Yeah, maybe the Opinion piece would like to show where it gets its numbers from? From the 6th paragraph: “The total number of Shia killed in militant attacks since Pakistan’s inception is believed to be around 20,000 with over 10,000 of them in direct attacks on the Shia community according to Global Human Rights Defense on Pakistan’s report in 2012.” > [@](#): > > While every death is a tragedy and the state has been derelict in clamping down on these organisations until recently, even if the numbers are accepted, 20,000 over 70 years in a population of 40 million is not genocide. If not it is certainly an _attempted_ genocide. [Grim News from Quetta](https://www.nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/quetta/) > [@](#): > > the real goal of these non-stop bombings: forcing Hazara kids, especially Hazara girls, to stop going to school. And it’s working. According to The Friday Times, the part of Quetta where the university is located is now a no-go area for Hazara, making sure that they’re excluded from any higher education: > > The Hazara people are not allowed in certain parts of Quetta, including the Sariyab Road where Balochistan University is situated. According to Asmat Yari, the president of Hazara Students Federation (HSF), “Almost 75% of Hazara students have quit the university and those who remain cannot attend classes because of fear.” School attendance has also decreased by 10 percent this year, and college attendance by 25 percent. Parents do not let their children take exams in centers outside of the areas deemed safe for the Hazaras. > And so, on February 16, 2013, something like the perfect bombing—“perfect” in a horrible way—happened in Quetta. A water tanker full of explosives went off in “Hazara Town,” the Hazara ghetto. > > The bomb was perfectly placed to show the resentment Sunni Pakistanis feel at a once-submissive heretical group moving up in the world: the square where the tanker went off had at least four English-language and computer schools. The bomb exploded at the precise moment hundreds of Hazara kids were leaving their classes at those schools. After the bombing, the square was full of kids’ backpacks, books, and shoes. > > That’s what it is to be subject to pogroms all the time: You cluster together in tight ghettoes. That keeps you safe from smalltime harassment, but it also makes you a perfect target for big bombs like this one. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/56 "2016-01-13T06:59:27Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Yeah, maybe the Opinion piece would like to show where it gets its numbers from? While every death is a tragedy and the state has been derelict in clamping down on these organisations until recently, even if the numbers are accepted, 20,000 over 70 years in a population of 40 million is not genocide. I agree that the word genocide gets bandied about too much, but it’s pretty clear that there exist at least some Sunni extremist organisations in Pakistan that effectively and consistently target Shias and Shia places of worship, while there’s no real counterpart on anywhere close to the same scale on the Shia side that has come to my notice. This also fits together with my interpretation of the multiple data sources and supports the conclusion that Shia are disproportionately killed in extremist violence in Pakistan. ETA: BTW, the opinion piece _does_ list the source of its numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/57 "2016-01-13T08:32:08Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Ah. I get it now. Two bombings nine years ago(the perpetrators of which were caught) and vandalism against churches in India is suddenly equivalent … Aside from there is more than that so you are not one to be criticizing AK…, **no it is not an equivalence** , it was the reference to a similar type of action by extremists in the sense of violence to force social divides, to split mixed communities etc. The presence of violence by the extremists of some stripe did not refute (as you seemed to try to do in your reply to AK above _“A lot of the time you won’t even known the persons sect.”_). do not play hypocritical what games or distort please. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362/58 "2016-01-13T16:20:46Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Aside from there is more than that so you are not one to be criticizing AK…, **no it is not an equivalence** , it was the reference to a similar type of action by extremists in the sense of violence to force social divides, to split mixed communities etc. The presence of violence by the extremists of some stripe did not refute (as you seemed to try to do in your reply to AK above _“A lot of the time you won’t even known the persons sect.”_). > > do not play hypocritical what games or distort please. I’m not the one playing tu quoque games in a thread about the safety of Shia in Sunni countries, but if you must accuse me of hypocrisy, at least come up with something better. I was not trying to refute that “A lot of times you won’t even known the persons sect.”. I was pointing out that it doesn’t necessarily make you any safer. And if anonymity is what makes you safe, well, that’s not saying a lot either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-safe-is-it-to-be-sunni-in-a-shiite-country-and-vice-versa/742362.md?page=2)