# How Seinfeld changed TV. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 2, 2020, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795 "2020-01-02T19:19:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/41 "2020-01-03T15:58:50Z")
I seem to recall Larry David at one point saying that rather than being “about nothing,” the show was really about “how a stand-up comedian gets his ideas.” Or at least it was at first. Particularly in the early seasons, we would see a lot of Jerry doing stand-up as bumpers going into or coming back from commercial breaks. The routines he was performing would generally relate to the plot of that particular episode. Jerry Seinfeld did observational humor. The show was kind of like letting you know what it was that he had observed. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/42 "2020-01-03T16:07:58Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Note that being a “show about nothing” was a pitch they made to NBC. The show definitely had plots and so on. Some story lines lasting as much as a season. It didn’t break any ground in this regard. > > So they ignored their original pitch and just did what they wanted. I do think _Seinfeld_ was likely the first show to have a story arc essentially about the in-world characters making the very show they are characters in. It was in many ways a standup comic routine stretched out to be the Story A plot of a 22 minute long episode. Like the the one where they spend almost the entire episode trying to rememeber where they had parked at the Paramus Mall. And getting arrested for peeing against the wall in a corner of the garage when they couldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/43 "2020-01-03T16:09:14Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Oh. Well, then. That explains it. > > The characters in _ **Seinfeld** _ were more than just unlikable. Jerry was a complete jerk when it came to women. George was a compulsive liar. Newman had no redeeming characteristics whatsoever. And Kramer was just batshit crazy. > > In a sitcom populated by less than admirable males, the featured female is usually an island of stability and sanity. Elaine, on the other hand, was just another loser. Couldn’t find or keep a man, couldn’t hold down a job, couldn’t even dance well. More often than not, she was the butt of other people’s humor. honestly I think part of what made _Seinfeld_ was the supporting cast. Mostly in how they were all just randomly _weird as shit_. Kenny Bania, J. Peterman, Newman, George’s parents (who remind me of my grandparents!,) Babu, the Soup Nazi, Puddy, etc. The first couple of seasons were rather drab until the supporting characters really came into their own. it kind of led the way for shows like _Scrubs_ where most of the characters are insane in their own ways. > [@ftg](#): > > Note that being a “show about nothing” was a pitch they made to NBC. The show definitely had plots and so on. Some story lines lasting as much as a season. It didn’t break any ground in this regard. I took “a show about nothing” as in they didn’t really have any core “premise” like many sitcoms; e.g. one where most of the episodes are a handful of “friends” who sit in a coffee shop all day, or a family sitcom where mom, dad, and their perfect 2.5 kids solve all of their trivial problems within 22 minutes except for an occasional multi-part “very special episode.” ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/44 "2020-01-03T17:41:07Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Just to be clear, we’re talkin’ about George \*Costanza \*here?!? :eek: > > What percentage of the time did he actually \*have \*a job, or appeal to any woman? :dubious: He worked! He worked for ‘George Steinbrenner’, the Yankees, and at a couple of other jobs. He was engaged to a rich, beautiful woman (Susan, and he had no problem getting dates. Jerry Seinfeld said that was one of life’s mysteries, like watching the bumblebee fly - it shouldn’t be able to fly, but it does. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/45 "2020-01-03T18:36:26Z")
> [@salinqmind](#): > > He worked! He worked for ‘George Steinbrenner’, the Yankees, and at a couple of other jobs. He was engaged to a rich, beautiful woman (Susan, and he had no problem getting dates. Jerry Seinfeld said that was one of life’s mysteries, like watching the bumblebee fly - it shouldn’t be able to fly, but it does. He would occasionally luck into a good job, but he never stayed in one very long. He also spent long periods unemployed. It was the same with women. He never failed to drive them away after a fairly short time. He got Susan back after he drove her to lesbianism, and she must have really been desperate for a relationship when he showed up unannounced at her door years after they split up. Living with his parents also didn’t do much for his sex life. The real mystery was Kramer, who got through life without working, mooched food, had sex without dating, and fell ass-backwards into piles of money. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/46 "2020-01-03T18:54:50Z")
> [@syncrolecyne](#): > > The sudden, rather jarring death of Susan in the show marked this disregard for long-term narrative. This very fragmented approach paved the way toward many more recent shows. Susan was eliminated because the writers had painted themselves into a corner. She was limiting the kind of stories they could do, and they didn’t want her and George to settle into a standard sitcom-type marriage. Her mode of death was due to someone (Jerry, I think) planting the idea in Larry David’s mind at a gathering as he was trying to figure out what to do: “Don’t you wish you could just have her killed off?” ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/47 "2020-01-03T19:13:33Z")
The actress who played Susan didn’t connect well with the other actors. They grew to dislike her. Death ensued. Here’s a [list](http://kramersapartment.com/characters/george-costanzas-jobs/) of all of George’s jobs. Note that he was completely unemployed for only a few brief periods (not counting Summer of George as that was a voluntary time off with compensation … which resulted him being laid up and unable to work). He worked 3 seasons for the Yankees and almost one whole season for KruOOOeger. He also was a sitcom writer for one season. That’s 5 out of 9 seasons right there. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/48 "2020-01-03T19:48:00Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > The actress who played Susan didn’t connect well with the other actors. They grew to dislike her. Death ensued. > > Here’s a [list](http://kramersapartment.com/characters/george-costanzas-jobs/) of all of George’s jobs. Note that he was completely unemployed for only a few brief periods (not counting Summer of George as that was a voluntary time off with compensation … which resulted him being laid up and unable to work). > > He worked 3 seasons for the Yankees and almost one whole season for KruOOOeger. He also was a sitcom writer for one season. That’s 5 out of 9 seasons right there. That too. Susan didn’t connect with the cast either on or off screen. She was always off key in the grand scheme of things, and it was painfully obvious. Five out of nine is what, 56% of the time? Not a great track record. And I’m not sure I’d give George a writer’s credit on a sitcom that didn’t get picked up, especially since he had to cut his fee down to what, $2000 (after sharing it with Jerry)? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/49 "2020-01-03T20:17:02Z")
If he wasn’t already engaged, George Costanza would have dated _Marisa Tomei_. I’m sorry, that’s just not realistic. He snagged her with a suave pickup line about how “manure” is such a great word. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/50 "2020-01-03T20:56:18Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > He would occasionally luck into a good job, but he never stayed in one very long. He also spent long periods unemployed. > > It was the same with women. He never failed to drive them away after a fairly short time. He got Susan back after he drove her to lesbianism, and she must have really been desperate for a relationship when he showed up unannounced at her door years after they split up. Living with his parents also didn’t do much for his sex life. > > The real mystery was Kramer, who got through life without working, mooched food, had sex without dating, and fell ass-backwards into piles of money. the funny thing is Kramer is based on [a real person.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_Kramer) ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/51 "2020-01-03T22:02:56Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > The actress who played Susan didn’t connect well with the other actors. They grew to dislike her. Death ensued. Heidi Swedberg went on to be something of a celebrity on the ukulele circuit, playing at festivals and giving lessons. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/52 "2020-01-04T00:20:16Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > If he wasn’t already engaged, George Costanza would have dated _Marisa Tomei_. I’m sorry, that’s just not realistic. He snagged her with a suave pickup line about how “manure” is such a great word. Yep, and he immediately drove her away by revealing what a jerk he was (not that she wouldn’t have found out anyway). Even when he was free later, she hung up on him when he asked her out again. I found the whole thing a bit unrealistic myself. I wonder if she really does like short, bald, quirky men in real life. The lesson I draw from it is (a) lie when it is appropriate, and/or (b) dump your fiancee before you hit on someone else you fancy. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/53 "2020-01-04T14:56:52Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > If he wasn’t already engaged, George Costanza would have dated _Marisa Tomei_. I’m sorry, that’s just not realistic. He snagged her with a suave pickup line about how “manure” is such a great word. How much of Seinfeld was realistic, again? 🙂 It was a just a joke. Marisa Tomei, who could have any man she liked, just happened to want someone like George, whose wet dream just happened to be Marisa Tomei. It was about what would happen if your wildest fantasy came true. Like a dog who catches a car and doesn’t know what to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/54 "2020-01-04T15:26:50Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > How much of Seinfeld was realistic, again? 🙂 TV in general is not realistic, but some things are more unrealistic than others. I realize that in this case, it was for comedic effect. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/55 "2020-01-04T16:31:17Z")
> [@syncrolecyne](#): > > One thing about Seinfeld that I think is unique is that most sitcom episodes were centered on one main story. Most Seinfeld episodes had two or three subplots that had little relation to each other… This was my recollection as well. I would sometimes miss the first ten minutes of the show and then be lost and miss jokes because I had missed the setup for the various story lines. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/56 "2020-01-04T17:35:23Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Five out of nine is what, 56% of the time? Not a great track record. And I’m not sure I’d give George a writer’s credit on a sitcom that didn’t get picked up, especially since he had to cut his fee down to what, $2000 (after sharing it with Jerry)? 5 out of 9 seasons he had long term jobs. Short term for most of the rest. Just looking again I see that George apparently worked for the real estate company for almost 2 seasons on the show. (The first season being very short.) Elaine also had job turnover issues. But the real issue was girl/boyfriend turnover. As per the site I linked to earlier they give: Jerry: 66 Elaine: 56 George: 47 Kramer: 16 ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/57 "2020-01-04T17:42:23Z")
Many of “boyfriend/girlfriend” turnover were people they dated once or twice. Those numbers aren’t that big for someone who dates a lot. If one and done dinner or coffee dates count, I match those numbers. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/58 "2020-01-04T17:58:07Z")
The “no hugging and no learning” should have influenced the sitcoms that followed, not sure if it did\*. To me the antithesis is still the prevailing approach: - male/female leads sexual tension breaks down and they have sex. - moving in together - marriage proposal/engagement - wedding - baby This is the death spiral of a sitcom, like Big Bang Theory - used to be a favourite of mine but stopped watching it years ago. - Community? Parks and Recreation?, Others? not sure since I don’t watch a lot of TV. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/59 "2020-01-04T21:42:57Z")
> [@K364](#): > > This is the death spiral of a sitcom, like Big Bang Theory - used to be a favourite of mine but stopped watching it years ago. Amen to that! ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/60 "2020-01-04T22:30:36Z")
> [@K364](#): > > The “no hugging and no learning” should have influenced the sitcoms that followed, not sure if it did\*. To me the antithesis is still the prevailing approach: > > - male/female leads sexual tension breaks down and they have sex. > - moving in together > - marriage proposal/engagement > - wedding > - baby > This is the death spiral of a sitcom, like Big Bang Theory - used to be a favourite of mine but stopped watching it years ago. > > - Community? Parks and Recreation?, Others? not sure since I don’t watch a lot of TV. I don’t watch much tv these days let alone sitcoms but this is such a common trope that I can’t understand why the people in charge make this same mistake over and over again. Has adding a baby ever worked out for the better? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795.md?page=4)