# How Seinfeld changed TV. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 2, 2020, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795 "2020-01-02T19:19:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/61 "2020-01-04T23:16:46Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Barney Miller had a largish group of repeat characters. There were many callbacks with these characters over obscure things from prior episodes. I loved the werewolf guy. He was a hoot. A howl? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/62 "2020-01-05T00:54:45Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > I loved the werewolf guy. He was a hoot. A howl? One of the best exchanges on this low-key gem. Yemana: He really is a werewolf, Barn. Look, he’s got hair growing out of his face! Captain Barney Miller: That’s a beard. Haven’t you ever seen one? Yemana: Not in MY family. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/63 "2020-01-05T02:02:23Z")
I think what Seinfeld did differently than other sitcoms of the era was the approach Larry and Jerry took to writing. Here’s how I imagine the writing process works for most sitcoms: they come up with a story, or situation, that presents a new challenge or conflict for the characters. Then they try to fill in that story with jokes. Especially family-based sitcoms, the moral dilemma is really the crux of the story, the jokes are just support. Seinfeld and David wrote their episodes like comedy bits. Like a comedian telling a story about some friends. They’d build around an awkward social encounter, add a bunch of commentary and what-ifs from the friends, and end with a callback. The fallout from the first situation would create another ridiculous encounter where characters are caught in their lies or forced to face whatever they were avoiding. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/64 "2020-01-05T10:54:39Z")
I would guess one big change it started was the salaries paid to the lead actors. In its final season, I believe each of the four lead actors was paid an equal amount and it was extremely high. After Seinfeld, I have heard that other TV shows had to pay their lead actors comparable amounts of money. But that is just according to some rumors I’ve read and I’d like to know if anyone knows the actual truth about that. ---
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/65 "2020-01-05T11:18:49Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Seinfeld also went after topics like homosexuality, cunnilingus, masturbation, etc., which was far from mainstream network sitcom themes at the time. Having a contest about masturbating? And getting it past the censors? Genius. Ever hear of a little sitcom called **Soap**? While I don’t remember anything about masturbation (though it was probably in there somewhere; this _was_ **Soap** ) they had Jody, who was gay and they didn’t hide it. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/66 "2020-01-05T14:17:57Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > …and often had the characters no better off then when they started. I have long maintained this is the very definition of a traditional sitcom. Gilligan never gets off the island. The girl never gets pregnant. (If she does, the kid disappears.) Nobody dies. They never move to a new city. This is because the episodes have to be able to be seen in random order. This single requirement is a heavy burden on any writer. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/67 "2020-01-05T15:37:54Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I have long maintained this is the very definition of a traditional sitcom. Gilligan never gets off the island. The girl never gets pregnant. (If she does, the kid disappears.) Nobody dies. They never move to a new city. This is because the episodes have to be able to be seen in random order. > > This single requirement is a heavy burden on any writer. This isn’t confined to sitcoms. Continuity has to be maintained in any series, or the format is upset. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/68 "2020-01-05T16:40:51Z")
Imho… Seinfeld was the first sitcom without a moral center. All previous sitcoms… Buffalo Bill, Molly Dodd, Archie Bunker, Gilligan… had a moral center around which the characters revolved, strayed from, and 22 minutes later reoriented themselves to. This moral center may differ from sitcom to sitcom and, really, from any scripted TV show from 1948-1990ish… in Cosby, the center was family, in Hill Street Blues it was the camaraderie and professionalism of your fellow officer, in Gilligan’s Island it was to the harmony of the group, in Adam 12 it was dedication to the law, etc etc… but this unspoken “Hayes Code” of American TV, this need to resolve the 22 minutes with the characters conforming to a culturally normalized ‘moral code’… it did exist. And _this_ is, imho, what made Seinfeld so revolutionary in its impact: its refusal to make its characters revert, after 22 minutes, to Anglo-American cultural norms of “decency” which themselves were frozen in 1950s archetypes (and is what made the final so controversial- we didn’t _want_ these people to be punished!) ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/69 "2020-01-05T17:35:10Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Imho… > > And _this_ is, imho, what made Seinfeld so revolutionary in its impact: its refusal to make its characters revert, after 22 minutes, to Anglo-American cultural norms of “decency” which themselves were frozen in 1950s archetypes (and is what made the final so controversial- we didn’t _want_ these people to be punished!) Very good observation about moral points. IMO in the finale, they all died in that plane crash. The court room scenes were The Judgement and their imprisonment all together in one cell, nattering about nothing, was their sentence to Purgatory. They weren’t evil enough to go to Hell, but so many people despised them for their stupid self-centered shenanigans, they simply couldn’t go to Heaven, either. I think it was a suitable punishment! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/70 "2020-01-05T18:08:58Z")
One of the technical answers is that Seinfeld messed with the standard sitcom A/B plot structure. When they did it, they played more with how the plotlines interacted. But they were also happy to chuck it completely. Sort of different but one thng that sold ne on the show was that episode where his car was stolen and they got on the car phone with the thief. Kramer asks to talk, and he tries to get the guy to look for the gloves he left in the car. Iirc, the episode was about car rental after that and no more mention until the very last scene when Kramer puts his loves on the diner table and Seinfeld is “wtf? Those are the gloves?”. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/71 "2020-01-05T18:15:53Z")
Lol, should have gone for a new post rather than that typo laden fast edit. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/72 "2020-01-05T18:54:32Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Imho… > > Seinfeld was the first sitcom without a moral center. All previous sitcoms… Buffalo Bill, Molly Dodd, Archie Bunker, Gilligan… had a moral center around which the characters revolved, strayed from, and 22 minutes later reoriented themselves to. > > This moral center may differ from sitcom to sitcom and, really, from any scripted TV show from 1948-1990ish… in Cosby, the center was family, in Hill Street Blues it was the camaraderie and professionalism of your fellow officer, in Gilligan’s Island it was to the harmony of the group, in Adam 12 it was dedication to the law, etc etc… but this unspoken “Hayes Code” of American TV, this need to resolve the 22 minutes with the characters conforming to a culturally normalized ‘moral code’… it did exist. > > And _this_ is, imho, what made Seinfeld so revolutionary in its impact: its refusal to make its characters revert, after 22 minutes, to Anglo-American cultural norms of “decency” which themselves were frozen in 1950s archetypes (and is what made the final so controversial- we didn’t _want_ these people to be punished!) You could maybe make a case for Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/73 "2020-01-05T19:03:37Z")
People have made many correct observations about how Seinfeld was different than what came before. How did it change tv though? What popular shows came afterwards that probably wouldn’t have if not for Seinfeld? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/74 "2020-01-05T19:52:05Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You could maybe make a case for Cheers. I disagree as the moral center with Cheers was the redemption and rehabilitation of Sam Malone. No matter what happened, the group… from Carla to Norm to Coach to Fraiser… worked to make Sam Malone a better person and to keep him on the wagon - I could argue that this is the central conceit of the show, it’s so evident in their actions and non-actions. Sam may have fallen from the wagon _because_ of, say, Diane… but Diane would never, ever offer Sam a drink as, in the end, it’s continuing his rehabilitation which gives her, and the others, a moral center about which to rotate. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/75 "2020-01-05T20:02:12Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > People have made many correct observations about how Seinfeld was different than what came before. How did it change tv though? What popular shows came afterwards that probably wouldn’t have if not for Seinfeld? It allowed for story arcs and characters which were non redemptive. The Sopranos, for example, was also non-redemptive: It’s difficult imagining a show with the moral blankness of the Sopranos coming before Seinfeld made ditching the American moral status quo a thing. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/76 "2020-01-05T20:03:08Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > People have made many correct observations about how Seinfeld was different than what came before. How did it change tv though? What popular shows came afterwards that probably wouldn’t have if not for Seinfeld? As others have mentioned, Seinfeld got rid of the sentimental Lesson of the Week format. Before Seinfeld almost all comedies had that format. Since Seinfeld most comedies don’t. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/77 "2020-01-05T20:05:49Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > As others have mentioned, Seinfeld got rid of the sentimental Lesson of the Week format. Before Seinfeld almost all comedies had that format. Since Seinfeld most comedies don’t. For example… ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/78 "2020-01-05T20:32:10Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > It allowed for story arcs and characters which were non redemptive. The Sopranos, for example, was also non-redemptive: It’s difficult imagining a show with the moral blankness of the Sopranos coming before Seinfeld made ditching the American moral status quo a thing. No way. There were plenty of anti-hero mob movies that are the obvious predecessors to The Sopranos. Seinfeld can’t take credit for that. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/79 "2020-01-05T20:37:53Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No way. There were plenty of anti-hero mob movies that are the obvious predecessors to The Sopranos. Seinfeld can’t take credit for that. I agree and we are talking about sitcoms anyway. I am honestly not trying to be a dick but I have casually read this thread and I have yet to see some examples of sitcoms that fit the premise of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795/80 "2020-01-05T20:45:44Z")
Well, in relation to my point, I think shows like Single Parents and Life in Pieces really went with the messing with the A/B plot formula. Some might consider Always Sunny in Philadelphia as something of an extreme Seinfeld. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seinfeld-changed-tv/845795.md?page=5)