# How serious is gerrymandering in the US if at all? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2017, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060 "2017-03-13T03:56:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/61 "2017-03-20T10:43:05Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Gerrymandering isn’t inherently illegal, so you can’t just look at the results of court cases. Thanks Lord Feldon. What is the best way to determine such issues then? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/62 "2017-03-20T18:22:37Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Who determines the number of voters of each party in each district? Legislators. Cite for this extraordinary claim? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/63 "2017-03-21T06:25:15Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Cite for this extraordinary claim? Are you being disingenuous, or do you really know that little about how redistricting works? (Emphasis mine in the following.) [http://www.wral.com/us-supreme-court-to-draw-lines-on-nc-gerrymandering-case/16297884/](http://www.wral.com/us-supreme-court-to-draw-lines-on-nc-gerrymandering-case/16297884/) First paragraph: > [@](#): > > A legal donnybrook over how North Carolina **lawmakers** carved the state into 13 congressional districts will give the U.S. Supreme Court a chance to weigh in on how and when race may be used in drawing political boundaries. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redistricting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redistricting) > [@](#): > > In 28 states, the state legislature has primary responsibility for creating a redistricting plan, in many cases subject to approval by the state governor. To reduce the role that legislative politics might play, twelve states (Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Missouri, Montana, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Washington) determine congressional redistricting by an independent or bipartisan redistricting commission.[1] Five states: Maine, New York, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Virginia give independent bodies authority to propose redistricting plans, but preserve the role of legislatures to approve them. Four states have only a single representative for the entire state because of their low populations; these are Delaware, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Wyoming. > > … > > Partisan domination of state legislatures and **improved technology to design contiguous districts that pack opponents into as few districts as possible have led to district maps which are skewed towards one party.** Consequently, many states including Florida, Georgia, Maryland, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Texas have succeeded in reducing or effectively eliminating competition for most House seats in those states. In 2003 Republicans in Texas increased their representation in the U.S. House through a controversial mid-decade redistricting. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/64 "2017-03-21T20:05:57Z")
Michigan has serious gerrymandering issues. This is a recurring theme in nearly every state where the state legislature is controlled by the GOP. > **[Once again, Michigan Dems receive more votes in the State House, but...](https://www.metrotimes.com/news/once-again-michigan-dems-receive-more-votes-in-the-state-house-but-republicans-hold-onto-power-2472685)** > > There's a lot of justifiable outrage over a Republican presidential candidate coming up short in the popular vote but winning the presidency for the second... “The same scenario played out in the Congressional races in 2014. Democratic candidates received 50,000 more votes that year, but Republicans sent nine representatives to Washington, D.C. while Dems sent five. Republican candidates edged Dems in the 2016 Congressional races, but are again sending four more representatives to Washington.” ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/65 "2017-03-22T05:51:06Z")
Johnny Ace, Here’s what YOU said. > [@](#): > > Who determines the number of voters of each party in each district? Legislators. Redistricting does no such thing. The Legislators don’t sit around saying OK, House District #1 will have 20,000 Republicans and 17,000 Democrats. Even if that were Constitutional, it would be impossible. Generally, redistricting only happens after the census every ten years. People move, die, turn 18, become citizens, etc. The voting rolls change from month to month. And in General Elections, no state requires one to state for which party they are going to vote before being handed a secret ballot. So again, how are Legislators “determining the number of voters of each party in each district”? YOU made that claim; please back it up. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/66 "2017-03-22T08:35:29Z")
I’ve added numbers (1, 2, 3) to the following so I can address it point by point. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > … [1] Redistricting does no such thing. The Legislators don’t sit around saying OK, House District #1 will have 20,000 Republicans and 17,000 Democrats. > > [2] Even if that were Constitutional, it would be impossible… People move, die, turn 18, become citizens, etc. The voting rolls change from month to month. > > [3] And in General Elections, no state requires one to state for which party they are going to vote before being handed a secret ballot… 😕 :smack: Johnny Ace’s comment was a very appropriate answer here: > [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Are you being disingenuous, or do you really know that little about how redistricting works? I’ll assume that you, indeed, have trouble grasping essentials. I’ll review them for you. (1) Individual legislators may or may not do this. But Republican-allied organizations certainly do hire accountant types and computer programmers _ **who do precisely this** _. This was cited upthread. (2) In the absence of major upheaval (e.g. the flooding of New Orleans), unexpected demographic changes over a ten-year period will not be too large. In your example, (“House District #1 will have 20,000 Republicans and 17,000 Democrats”), it will not be crippling to the gerrymanderers if this switches to 19,500 to 17,500. As to whether it is “constitutional”: some of the gerrymandering has been ordered undone by federal judges, again cited upthread. Or is it your claim that judges have reversed _all_ cases of “unconstitutional” gerrymandering? (3) Individual ballots are secret, _ **but precinct totals are not.** _ When gerrymanders are designed, the district lines are not plotted house-by-house, but only down to the precinct level. Hope this helps. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/67 "2017-03-22T15:47:12Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > (1) Individual legislators may or may not do this. But Republican-allied organizations certainly do hire accountant types and computer programmers _ **who do precisely this** _. This was cited upthread. Just a passing curiousity, do you believe that there are no Democrat-allied organizations hiring accountants and computer programmers to do this for their side? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/68 "2017-03-22T16:57:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Just a passing curiousity, do you believe that there are no Democrat-allied organizations hiring accountants and computer programmers to do this for their side? With the GOP controlling most legislatures, those hypothetical hirees are probably looking for a new job! I daresay neither of us knows a comprehensive answer to your question. I refer you to the article (linked upthread) by Sam Wang _who has studied_ that question. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/69 "2017-03-22T20:22:12Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > With the GOP controlling most legislatures, those hypothetical hirees are probably looking for a new job! > > I daresay neither of us knows a comprehensive answer to your question. I refer you to the article (linked upthread) by Sam Wang _who has studied_ that question. I don’t think my question was asking for a “comprehensive” answer. I’m not asking if there are more Dems or Reps doing it. I want to know if you believe there are _any_ Dems doing it. That seems like a pretty simple question with a fairly obvious answer. After all, the GOP may control most legislatures, but they don’t control all of them. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/70 "2017-03-22T21:06:05Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I refer you to the article (linked upthread) by Sam Wang _who has studied_ that question. You mean the same Sam Wang who ate a bug because he was wrong about the last election? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/71 "2017-03-22T21:36:13Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Puddleglum wrote: “Very little of it. Democrats tend to be highly clustered in urban areas whereas Republicans are spread out more. Thus the only way to prevent it would be to purposely draw districts to be competitive which would be illegal under the voting rights act.” > > This is often cited by those who either don’t see the problem or don’t see it _as_ a problem. The “spreading out” of Republicans is, in many cases, merely geographic. \*\*The _areas_ in which they live are just as solidly Republican as the “clustered” Democratic ones are Democratic. \*\* > > This is not an either/or situation. There are parts of my state of Michigan, which are never going to be competitive, but that’s no reason not to have competitive districts where you can. > > My district, Michigan’s 14th, starts out in Detroit (mostly black), sends a narrow tendril over, then picks up some integrated near suburbs and then ends up in Pontiac (again mostly black). > > [http://wdet.org/media/daguerre/2016/05/25/53c6d8296e7eeb63f3ad.png](http://wdet.org/media/daguerre/2016/05/25/53c6d8296e7eeb63f3ad.png) > > It is one thing to adhere to the voting rights act and create districts which are “majority minority”. It is another to use that requirement as a rationale for the creation of what I term “electoral ghettos”. Not quite true. There are few if any Congressional districts where the Republicans consistently get more than 75% of the vote, but there are many districts where the Democrats routinely hit 90%. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/72 "2017-03-22T23:35:53Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > You mean the same Sam Wang who ate a bug because he was wrong about the last election? :smack: Maybe he didn’t study the election 😉 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/73 "2017-03-22T23:54:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > … I want to know if you believe there are _any_ Dems doing it… I suppose there are Democrats who would sell their sisters into slavery if it would give them an electoral edge. And there are Republicans who would no more stoop to trickery than St. Joseph the Chaste would. But a percentage bettor would bet the opposite way! _One party has demonstrated time and time again in recent years, that it will put partisan advantage ahead of “fair play” much more than the other party._ One can view this either as a feature or as a fault. If a politician is convinced that he knows what is best for the country, he may say the “ends justify the means” and be happy to bend the rules if it advances his party’s cause. _I do not even object to this in principle_ — I just do not believe GOP policies are good for the country. Today’s Democratic Party has a much stronger moral compass, IMO, giving them an electoral handicap. … But do be sure to ridicule Sam Wang, if it suits your partisan purpose, rather than bothering to click his article. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/74 "2017-03-23T00:03:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > … I want to know if you believe there are _any_ Dems doing it… And there you go again, with your italicized “any”, implying that if a _single_ Democrat takes some unfair action, that excuses a multitude of Republicans doing the same thing. Does this seem intellectually honest? Do you see that such rhetoric is an example of the very difference in moral and intellectual outlook between the two parties that I just alluded to in preceding post? ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/75 "2017-03-23T01:12:36Z")
Thing Fish wrote: “Not quite true. There are few if any Congressional districts where the Republicans consistently get more than 75% of the vote, but there are many districts where the Democrats routinely hit 90%.” The idea is to cut your own margin of victory down to the level where it is as small as possible but still a reliable win. And breaking up a smaller city and putting its (Democratic) voters into multiple districts doesn’t make the surrounding areas any less Republican. And take a gander at Michigan’s Ninth district. [![](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan%27s_9th_congressional_district#/media/File:Michigan_US_Congressional_District_9_(since_2013).tif) ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan%27s_9th_congressional_district#/media/File:Michigan_US_Congressional_District_9_(since_2013).tif) ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/76 "2017-03-23T01:29:16Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > But do be sure to ridicule Sam Wang, if it suits your partisan purpose, rather than bothering to click his article. Why would I click on his “article”, when he clearly doesn’t know what he’s talking about? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/77 "2017-03-23T02:45:48Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Why would I click on his “article”, when he clearly doesn’t know what he’s talking about? What tripe — and more evidence for my point about the intellectual honesty of right-wingers. By this criterion, you’d ignore almost every Republican who ever vocalized an intelligible sentence. As well as Galileo Galilei who erroneously thought that a circular arc was a tautochrone. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/78 "2017-03-23T03:58:30Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Why would I click on his “article”, when he clearly doesn’t know what he’s talking about? Those who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. Shall we have a quiz on redistricting now? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/79 "2017-03-23T05:38:07Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Those who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. > > Shall we have a quiz on redistricting now? Yes, let’s. Does the legislature determine the number of voters in each party in each district? No, they don’t, and they cannot. But since you made the claim, I’ll let you provide the cite, which I’m sure is forthcoming, right? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060/80 "2017-03-23T06:03:24Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Yes, let’s. > > Does the legislature determine the number of voters in each party in each district? > > No, they don’t, and they cannot. But since you made the claim, I’ll let you provide the cite, which I’m sure is forthcoming, right? This is very silly pedantry. I understood exactly what **Johnny Ace** meant. For all intents and purposes, immediately after redistricting, the legislature has determined how many voters in each party are in each district, _within a very small margin of error_. That’s literally the purpose of gerrymandering. And yes, while the _exact_ numbers can shift, that doesn’t actually imply that they _will_ shift dramatically enough to undo the bias the gerrymandering introduces. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-serious-is-gerrymandering-in-the-us-if-at-all/782060.md?page=5)