# How seriously does the US military take 'homosexual misconduct'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 14, 2008, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691 "2008-11-14T09:40:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Incref](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f17d59/32.png) [@Incref](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incref)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/1 "2008-11-14T09:40:36Z")
I was watching the latest season of the L word and there is a story line about a woman who dishonourably discharged from the army for being a lesbian. There is an entire investigation beforehand and trial of sorts before she admits that she is gay. Do they really take it this far? I thought the US would take whatever troops they could get and (short of someone making out with their partner on the barracks) would just ignore it even someone is quite out. Seems odd that even though in some states gay marriage is legal there is still this national policy for the service. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/2 "2008-11-14T09:53:27Z")
According to the [New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/15/washington/15discharge.html?pagewanted=print) > [@](#): > > The Defense Department discharged 726 service members last year [2005] for being gay…The total of such discharges in 2004 was 653. That compares with 770 in 2003, 885 in 2002 and 1,227 in 2001. > > Under a policy introduced by the Clinton administration known as “don’t ask, don’t tell,” the military cannot inquire into service members’ sex lives unless there is evidence of homosexual conduct. > > Those who volunteer the information have to be discharged. More than 11,000 members have been discharged for that reason ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/3 "2008-11-14T10:47:54Z")
It depends on how the member’s conduct is affecting the performance of A) those around him/her, or B) the unit as a whole. I’ve known several gay/lesbian Airmen, who while they didn’t hide it like they were in fear for their lives, they didn’t openly proclaim it in a loud booming voice from the mountain either. Basically, in this case, what they did in their off time was their business (as compared to drug use, or adultery with affects personal performance and injures another respectively). Those Airmen, who were good Airmen, were quietly known to a few as being gay or lesbian, and they didn’t let that affect their performance or reputation–unlike some who use their _church_ involvement to prop themselves up or for sway. :rolleyes: My suspicion is that of the 726 discharges (of the hundreds of thousands in the Army right now), they did something so blatant they _wanted_ to get out. I think they were making a scene. Tripler I’ve filled out paperwork to throw out guys for less. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/4 "2008-11-14T11:00:29Z")
Quite seriously. It takes up several list points on the contract you sign when you join the military. They do _not_ play around about that stuff. It’s not just sexual orientation they stick their noses into, by the way. Having a child out of wedlock (regardless of your gender) is also grounds for disciplinary action up to and including separation (discharge), as is falling behind on one’s debts or child support. They also do not take kindly to charges of spousal abuse. And when you’re in the service, your Constitutional rights are substantially curbed as well; active membership in white supremacist groups (for example) can cause some real problems, and you can be sentenced to death for criticizing the President in time of war. When they say “signing your life away”, they mean it. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/5 "2008-11-14T11:14:13Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > Having a child out of wedlock (regardless of your gender) is also grounds for disciplinary action up to and including separation (discharge) Does this get punished often? Because that rule is positively archaic (not that the anti-homosexual one isn’t as well). I’m really quite shocked. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/6 "2008-11-14T11:17:46Z")
While in basic training, I saw a fellow trainee get discharged because some girl back home in East Bumfuck, Kansas gave birth to his child out of wedlock. I wouldn’t have any idea how often it happens, though. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/7 "2008-11-14T11:22:43Z")
Ok, just a quick question as I don’t want to hijack too much. Is having a child without being married a big thing in the States generally? Or is this just the military being old fashioned? ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/8 "2008-11-14T11:41:54Z")
It is. It’s not something you’d be reprimanded in your civilian job for, and people wouldn’t say anything rude about it or anything, but it certainly lowers your social standing. Culturally speaking, it is sometimes considered to be a mark of poor virtue and decision-making skills, on a par with alcoholism or a gambling problem. It’s definitely a hot gossip item at the very least. That’s changing, but overall it’s considered a social ill, even among strongly progressive people. The U.S. military certainly is “old fashioned”, although I think that’s putting it generously. In this particular detail, though, it’s not really far removed from the public thinking on the issue. It’s totally non-controversial, and it’s considered several hundred times more mundane than the military’s stance on homosexuality. This is assuming that by “having” you mean “giving birth to”. If you just have a child from a previous marriage, that’s really no big deal, in or out of the military. [More info:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_wedding#Shotgun_wedding) > [@Wikipedia](#): > > In some societies the stigma attached to pregnancy out of wedlock can be enormous, and coercive means (in spite of the legal defense of undue influence) for gaining recourse are often seen as the prospective father-in-law’s “right”, and an important, albeit unconventional, coming of age event for the young father-to-be. “Some societies” pretty clearly refers to the U.S., as it’s in a section about an American colloquialism. And it’s pretty accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/9 "2008-11-14T12:13:20Z")
Children out of wedlock is another area where the US is about 50 years behind Europe (and possibly other parts of the western world too). I know tons of people who have had children outside of marriage or had the children first and the wedding later, and neither I nor anyone I know gives a shit. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/10 "2008-11-14T12:25:26Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Children out of wedlock is another area where the US is about 50 years behind Europe (and possibly other parts of the western world too). I know tons of people who have had children outside of marriage or had the children first and the wedding later, and neither I nor anyone I know gives a shit. Absolutedly, I find it astonishing that this is still an issue in the US. I can’t think of anyone, even my 80 year old parents, who find anybody having children out of wedlock worth commenting on. Amongst my friends it’s extremely common to make a positive to choice to not get married, children or no children. And an unexpected pregnancy is certainly no cause for a shotgun wedding these days. ---
**Author:** ![Incref](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f17d59/32.png) [@Incref](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incref)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/11 "2008-11-14T12:35:55Z")
:eek: Wow. Seriously wow. When we’re talking out of wedlock are we literally talking not married or not in serious long term relationship? I mean I can _almost_ understand the stigma associated with an accidental pregnancy with someone you’ve only been dating a little while but I can’t say I would question a persons morals if they had a child with a long term partner. I personally know quite a few people with unmarried parents and I can’t imagine that would have an impact on their (the parents) standing professionally, socially or morally. I live in a middle class, suburban area in Australia. I thought that sort of attitude was restricted to seriously conservative religious types, developing countries and the 1950’s. There we go, watch me hijack my own thread. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/12 "2008-11-14T12:37:38Z")
Thanks for the reply **Hostile**. To avoid more hijack, and because I’m genuinely interested in this, I’ve started another [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10446847#post10446847). ETA Ok maybe we should have just continued here! Join me in IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/13 "2008-11-14T12:58:10Z")
**Incref** , in the interest of not hijacking your thread, I’ve posted my reply to your last post in **Petrobey Mavromihalis** ’s thread. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/14 "2008-11-14T14:02:09Z")
Mostly depends on the unit commander and how the presence of homos might affect mission readiness. My last day in The Army was in 1996. There were maybe, _maybe_, 40 people in my company if you count the supply folks. Of them, I know of at least 4 who were open homosexuals. Was it well known and acknowledged? Hell yes. Did our captain care? Not only NO, but she gave a bitch slap to the 1st Sgt for harassing them for no good reason. They were excellent soldiers, and vital members of a highly successful unit. I knew straight infantry guys at the time who feared anyone even considering that they might be a little light in the loafers because they’d get run out in a heartbeat. I can only assume that this has something to do with the relative average level of sophistication between a MI linguist and a gun bunny. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/15 "2008-11-14T14:40:24Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > Quite seriously. It takes up several list points on the contract you sign when you join the military. They do _not_ play around about that stuff. > > It’s not just sexual orientation they stick their noses into, by the way. Having a child out of wedlock (regardless of your gender) is also grounds for disciplinary action up to and including separation (discharge)… I don’t know what thread to post this in, since the other linked thread seems to be about U.S. society in general, not just the U.S. military. In any event, having a child out of wedlock is not a violation of the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). I have never heard of anyone facing disciplinary action for this alleged offense. What is an offense under the UCMJ is adultery. If you are married, and you get somebody who is not your spouse pregnant, you may be subject to disciplinary action. (Similarly, a married female servicemember who gets pregnant by someone other than her spouse is subject to disciplinary action.) In practice, this is unlikely to happen unless the offense becomes public and is “prejudicial to good order and discipline” or is likely to “bring discredit upon the armed forces.” Personal anecdote: Years ago my then-girlfriend and I were both active duty Navy officers in a long-term relationship. Actually, we were engaged but not married (and no date had been set), when she got pregnant. While it was not the most desirable situation to be in, neither of us had any issue with our respective commands. In fact, my wife’s commander threw her a baby shower. My commander was a conservative religious type, so I didn’t make a big deal of it to him. (Actually, he didn’t find out about it until the baby was born–when I told him, so I could take some time off.) As it turned out, we got married right before the baby was born. The order of events could easily have been reversed, though, and it wouldn’t have been that big a deal. > [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > …as is falling behind on one’s debts or child support. They also do not take kindly to charges of spousal abuse. And when you’re in the service, your Constitutional rights are substantially curbed as well; active membership in white supremacist groups (for example) can cause some real problems, and you can be sentenced to death for criticizing the President in time of war. When they say “signing your life away”, they mean it. Most of these other things mentioned here are indeed things that would potentially subject a servicemember to disciplinary action. “Getting sentenced to death for criticizing the President” overstates things, to say the least. At worst, you would be subject to disciplinary action and possibly discharged. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/16 "2008-11-14T14:45:03Z")
I’d like to reply to some misconceptions that seem to be developing in this thread. The actions against a servicemember who fathers or bears a child out of wedlock aren’t borne out of some old-fashioned sense of propriety - they are there because these matters have a massive impact on that member’s mission readiness - especially with regard to their ability to deploy overseas. Any currently serving servicemember or veteran likely has stories where matters like this had an adverse impact on their unit. That’s a minor matter if you work in an insurance office. It isn’t so minor in the desert or at sea or in an airplane. ---
**Author:** ![Amp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Amp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amp)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/17 "2008-11-14T15:05:37Z")
What kind of discharge would a homosexual get when getting drummed out of the service? Honorable? General under honorable conditions? Dishonorable? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/18 "2008-11-14T15:09:02Z")
Again I think it depends on who’s pushing the buttons. Depending on the circumstances and when, could be a “section 8” medical discharge, dishonorable…last I heard it was an “honorable.” Sort of a “Don’t go away mad, just go away” thing. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/19 "2008-11-14T15:12:06Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > unlike some who use their _church_ involvement to prop themselves up or for sway. “Prop themselves up or for sway”? What does that mean? > [@Incref](#): > > When we’re talking out of wedlock are we literally talking not married or not in serious long term relationship? I mean I can _almost_ understand the stigma associated with an accidental pregnancy with someone you’ve only been dating a little while but I can’t say I would question a persons morals if they had a child with a long term partner. > > I personally know quite a few people with unmarried parents and I can’t imagine that would have an impact on their (the parents) standing professionally, socially or morally. I think this issue is much more complicated than has been presented here. However, I would say that very generally speaking, even people in the far left of the American social spectrum see out-of-wedlock births as a social evil that must be fought with things like good sex education and other programs. But getting pregnant without being married is seen as something that responsible adults don’t do. It’s something for stupid teen-agers. Even my most relaxed and liberal friends have planned to be married roughly around the time that they get married. Some of them have missed by a little, but not intentionally. The attitude of most people I know is something like “I’m happy to continue living together, but if you want to have kids, then we’ve got to get married.” There are a small number of people – particularly women of a certain age – who plan to have children without marriage, mostly because they have no partner and have no interest or prospects in having a partner. That kind of decision isn’t looked at askance. On the other hand, there are a lot of people who do have children without being married and they aren’t socially punished in any way. As I said, it’s complicated. But “Oops! Pregnant!” Yeah, definitely, even a lot of educated and liberal people are going to think, “What the fuck’s wrong with you?” ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/20 "2008-11-14T15:12:50Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I’d like to reply to some misconceptions that seem to be developing in this thread. > > The actions against a servicemember who fathers or bears a child out of wedlock aren’t borne out of some old-fashioned sense of propriety - they are there because these matters have a massive impact on that member’s mission readiness - especially with regard to their ability to deploy overseas. > > Any currently serving servicemember or veteran likely has stories where matters like this had an adverse impact on their unit. That’s a minor matter if you work in an insurance office. It isn’t so minor in the desert or at sea or in an airplane. In what way does it adversely effect unit readiness to have a child out of wedlock rather than to have one while married? I’m a veteran and I can’t imagine. Either way the mom gets lots of time off and the dad gets some. Either way there is lots of frustrating paperwork. Seems like disciplinary action would just compound the issue. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691.md?page=2)