Agreed. There were four in my first ~30 person shop and at least six more (that I knew of) in my ~300 person command and no one cared. The guy who’d pull up the raised deck tiles behind the pos to nap under the floor on the midwatch? Yeah, lots of people cared about that dude. He didn’t last long.
It really depends on the command; some people are assholes about it, but I found overall that no one cares one way or the other as long as the job gets done. DADT was instituted about halfway through my military service and the only thing it really did was allow us to say things like “Sara, I know I’m not allowed to ask you about your girlfriend and you don’t have to tell me, but how’s Nikki doing?” - while winking.
Disagree. I don’t know your branch or when you were in but I knew a lot of single mothers. The ones who wanted to stay in had to sign “if I have to deploy, X will take care of the child” paperwork; the ones who didn’t want to stay in threw up their hands and said “Oh, poor me!”.
NIS (or whoever it was) made the mistake of driving down my (very rural) road and stopping in at the home of a neighbor who had apparently started drinking early that day and all but ran them off with a shotgun while hollering something along the lines of “leave that little girl alone she ain’t done nuthin’ wrong what are you accusing her of you gummint bastards”. Somehow I still got my TS-SCI…
And now that I’ve read the whole thread I think I’ve essentially said what everyone else had to say. IntelSoldier’s comments are utterly not in keeping with anything that I ever saw in the military outside of that subset of people who weren’t entirely comfortable with their own sexuality.
IntelSoldier - I’m not going to try and judge whether you’re a homophobe or not based on comments written on a message board, I don’t know you well enough to make that kind of assertion. That said the kind of reasoning you’re employing is something that I would expect to come out of the mouth of someone who is homophobic (at least in its literal sense of the word - afraid of homosexuality, which you do seem to have to some degree). At the very least you’re definitely not employing any empathy for all the gay people who have been drubbed out of the military for being gay, something that I would remind you is not a choice and therefore akin to throwing someone out based on their skin colour.
As jackdavinci says, I don’t think you’ve really thought through what DADT is there to do. It’s not there to protect straight men from homosexual attention (perceived or not), it’s a fudge to keep discrimination against gays in place whilst trying to make out the discrimination isn’t all that bad. In my view if homosexuality is that big a deal to the armed forces it would be far better to scrap the ridiculous policy and keep it forbidden so no-one has to suddenly be confronted with a discharge years into their career for something that doesn’t necessarily affect anyone, their combat effectiveness or morale (I’d also like some evidence that homosexuality does any of these things before I’ll agree it’s right to keep gays out of the military).
Of course it would be much better if they just removed homosexuality as an offence full stop, like most of the countries in Europe (and Israel, and Australia, and I think many South American countries) have done without any problems.
After filtering through the inflame of this discussion, I do believe I noticed a legitimate question for discussion.
Why is it socially acceptable for a woman to express fear that men are looking at her body, but not for men?
My own opinion is that both responses are irrational. Unless the man in question is giving off threatening signs, why should you be afraid of him?
On the other end, while I admit it is irrational, I do understand the desire for body privacy. Or, at least, I have felt it myself. My idea is that this fear is more easily dismissed when there is relative certainty that the one looking at that person’s body is not sexually attracted to it, thus disquieting the real but irrational fear of potential molestation.
What effect this has on military performance or should have on policy, I do not know nor care to speculate.
I’m trying to wrap my head around that as well. I think for women, the discomfort is probably legitimate. If you had men and women showering together, some inappropriate comments/obvious ogling/behavior would be practically given. You’d have to have a “shower monitor” to guarantee a stress-free showering environment (speaking as a straight male here btw). I think many men are just biologically wired to react to the sight of naked women as license to push their luck (unless there’s a big heavy bouncer around). I don’t feel like gay men would do this in a straight environment because the others would be an inhibitory majority. Admittedly this is just my gut feeling as a straight male and I can’t explain it. Army guys who fear gays probably think of how they themselves would react to women and feel intimidated by that.
I only told the story the way I heard it. As far as the dishonorable discharge, I’m sure it was a lot quieter than being court marshaled and having your dirty laundry aired in front of hundreds of people, possibly involving media and also your family finding out. That’s what I was saying.
Secondly, I’m not surprised by anything. And for you to nitpick at what I said is pretty childish and uncalled for. I simply told the story the way I heard it and if it bothers you, ask Larry Flick on OutQ in The Morning for the lady who went through this email address and take it up with her. Maybe you weren’t nitpicking, maybe you were just adding to what I said. If that is the case, my apologies.
Women at Burning Man or nudist colonies don’t have this hang up. In general, women are taught to fear men as being larger, stronger, and more aggressive. I for one welcome a future with a BSG / Starship Troopers / Ally McBeal / Mtv reality show coeed mindedness.
I was in the military when “don’t ask, don’t tell was formulated.”
I love women, and am shy against having miscellaneous women see me naked. I’m not an exhibitionist. There’s certainly nothing homophobic about not wanting men to look at you naked, either. Of course under “don’t ask, don’t tell,” you don’t know whether gay men are looking at you; you’re just safe to presume that there aren’t any, regardless of the actual odds that it’s so. It’s also possible that cross-dressing or trans-sexual women (in man mode) are looking at you. “Don’t ask, don’t tell” comes down to “don’t know, don’t worry.”
My point is that what you are saying is factually incorrect. A dishonorable discharge (DD) can only be issued by a general court-martial, which are military courts with attorneys and a military judge. A dishonorable discharge is the equivalent of a felony conviction. It is inherently NOT quieter. Not to mention the fact that dishonorable discharges are only issued for felony-type offenses (such as rape and murder), and NOT for “homosexual misconduct.”
Regardless of the source of your information, you are the one spreading the misinformation here on this message board. This a board dedicated to fighting ignorance, after all.
If you want me to nitpick, I’ll point out that the term you keep using is actually “court-martialed,” not “court marshaled.”
It’s years since I read Starship Troopers, and I didn’t see the film, but I certainly don’t remember the book as being all that co-ed. The Forever War, now that’s another story (as 'twere).
The movie featured gratuitous shots of co-ed showers in the military quarters.
As far as comparisons to nudist colonies and Burning Man go, they aren’t really realistic. Nudist colonies go out of their way to desexualize the human body (and indeed tend to be populated by human bodies lacking much sexual appeal). As far as Burning Man goes, that’s a temporary culture devoted to complete freedom of expression and abandon of social norms, enhanced by enjoyment of recreational substances. All of those practices are fine and good but they do not serve to inform on cultural attitudes toward nudity.
Given the adultery levels rampant amongst the enlisted ranks in the military that I witnessed when I was in, I find that hard to believe. It’s not a crime to have a child out of wedlock. I am not certain if the UCMJ has a stance on this.
