# How shall we define Fascism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2021, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511 "2021-07-28T09:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/21 "2021-07-28T23:36:09Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Fascism is a made up word. Where do you think words come from? ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/22 "2021-07-28T23:53:58Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > How many times do I have to teach you this lesson, old man? _ **Moderating** _ Let’s keep the temperature low and not call people “old man” or “blowhard” or the like. Just a note to remind everyone. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/23 "2021-07-29T06:30:50Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > What you describe would be a form of anarchism\*. No, that would be _anarchy_, which is not the same thing. There is no form of _anarchism_, as a political ideology, that does not espouse self-governing. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/24 "2021-07-29T07:44:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, that would be _anarchy_ , which is not the same thing. There is no form of _anarchism_ , as a political ideology, that does not espouse self-governing. Possible tangent, but I’m not sure that’s accurate. I don’t know of a universal definition for Anarchcism the same way The Communist Manifesto codifies Marxism or The Doctrine of Fascism codifies Fascism, but I believe the only common element of Anarchist ideologies is the total or near total absence of a state. So, self governance could be superceded by familial or even very loose tribal rule, provided there is no state or state apparatus (no chief, no ruling council, no warriors enforcing the rule of said cheif, council, or the group) and still be anarchsim. Consider that Anarcho-syndicalism still has syndicates, which ultimately serve to set the rules of the cooperative even if they are not in and of themselves a seperate state or state-like apparatus. That’s not “self-rule” as you are beholden to the consensus of the cooperative. However, bringing it back to your previous argument that started this tangent, I suggest you read a bit of history on how Hitler became chancelor. The Nazi Party was exactly as you describe - lawless, violent and seemingly planless. This was because obstructionism was the most effective way to weaken the Weimar Republic while their lawless extra-curricular activities marshalled support and brutalized/suppressed their opposition. Fascism is an ideology that does not specify a specific means in the same way that, say, Marxism specifically calls for a violent revolution of the masses that establishes a dictatorship of the proletariat. It’s more similar to a guiding philosophy and end state for society than any particular sequence of events or actions. Thus, while the Nazi’s for instance _looked_ aimless, it was actually more of an expression of their heroic ideal - derived and perverted from Nietzsche’s Ubermensch who does not tolerate the “intolerable” - and a means of achieving political influence. That is not to say that their means were explicitly fascist, only that they were useful in achieving a variant of Fascism and were in line with the Fascist idealization of the “hero.” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/25 "2021-07-29T08:43:10Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > So, self governance could be superceded by familial or even very loose tribal rule, provided there is no state or state apparatus (no chief, no ruling council, no warriors enforcing the rule of said cheif, council, or the group) and still be anarchsim. Sure, no argument here. By “self-governing” there I meant as opposed to a state, only. I myself am of a syndicalist tendency. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/26 "2021-07-29T14:30:07Z")
Anything which has the Fasces symbol. (How did that not become as verboten as the swatsika) Seriously. It’s a word devoid of all meaning, a bit like liberalism or conservatism, since it is applied to a very broad set of policies and preferences (almost exclusively negatively),. It’s divorced from its origin, and even the original kept evolving, Mussolini politics of 1933 was quite different from third of say 1943. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/27 "2021-07-29T15:18:59Z")
Isn’t it futile to try to come up with one definitive meaning of the term ‘fascist’? I think so because all we need is one authoritarian dictatorship that conforms completely to your idea of ‘fascism’ (whatever that is) but adds one wacky element (such as the state-sponsored adoration of the nightingale, say) and the whole damned thing goes out the window, “This can’t be fascism strictly defined because we venerate a species of birds!!” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/28 "2021-07-29T15:35:54Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > How did that not become as verboten as the swatsika Possibly because that iconography was [all over US federal properties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces#Examples_of_US_fasces_iconography) in a way the Swastika wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/29 "2021-07-29T16:05:15Z")
Ah. Thank you. I had hoped you’d comment. It makes sense that they would be different words. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/30 "2021-07-29T19:26:16Z")
I would also add that in order for an action to be fascist, it needs to be directed towards the promotion or preservation of the power of the fascist state. Just because you are being prevented from doing something you want to do or forced to do something you don’t doesn’t make if fascist. So being forced to wear a mask to prevent Covid: not fascist. Being forced to recite a loyalty oath fascist. Being blocked from a social media platform because you promote violence: not fasist. Shutting down all media platforms that criticize the government: fascist. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/31 "2021-07-29T21:29:46Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > I get that it’s not a definition, exactly. But it’s a negative definition. And it seems to me (as historically illiterate as I am) that everything about fascism is negative. It’s a political system based on lies and untruth. Amusingly, that is close to what an old SNL sketch about Uberman mentioned, the hypothetical scenario where Superman actually landed in Germany and [was raised in the Nazi way.](https://vimeo.com/30954731) > **Uberman** : Excuse me, Mein Fuhrer! Stand back! There’s a bomb inthis briefcase! [thorws bomb to the floor, then dives on top of it. The bomb explodes, smoke rises, and Uberman stands up unharmed.] > > **Hitler** : You smothered the bomb with your body, and you’re not even bleeding! Who are you? > > **Uberman** : I am… **Uberman!** I have superhuman powers, **and Ifight for untruth, injustice, and the Nazi way!** And I have X-ray vision! > > **Lois Laneoff** : X-ray vision? Can you see through my clothes? > > **Uberman** : Ya! And through _his_ , too. [points at Jimmy Olstein] He’s a **Jew!** ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/32 "2021-08-03T14:01:34Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Being blocked from a social media platform because you promote violence: not fasist. Shutting down all media platforms that criticize the government: fascist. What about the in-between option? Being blocked from a social media platform because you criticise the government, or something the government strongly supports. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/33 "2021-08-03T14:24:10Z")
Well, I suppose that depends. Is it _because_ the government supports it, or is it that the views one wishes to express are considered abhorrent by a large number of people, and the government and the social media platform just happen to be on the same page as those people? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/34 "2021-08-03T14:28:49Z")
I was thinking of people criticising Israel/actions of the Israeli government on US social media. Don’t think I’ve seen anyone kicked off for criticising the US government directly. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/35 "2021-08-03T18:10:17Z")
I guess the question would be whether the social media platform blocked you because of government pressure. If a private company, on its own, sponsors a gung-ho patriot social media platform that won’t stand for people criticizing old glory, that’s their business (not fascist). But if a government says that since the social media platform will lose their protection from lawsuits, if they kick off any supporters of the president then that might be fascist. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/36 "2021-08-03T21:46:40Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I was thinking of people criticising Israel/actions of the Israeli government on US social media. Don’t think I’ve seen anyone kicked off for criticising the US government directly. Could you show me an example of that? I’ve seen a lot of people who are critical of Israel on US social media claim that you can’t be critical of Israel on US social media, but I’ve never actually seen it happen. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/37 "2021-08-03T22:03:33Z")
I’ve never looked into it to see how true it is, but I’ve seen claims that so-and-so was suspended due to criticising Israel. My question was _if_ that happened, would it be fascism? But I can try and find an example if you want. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/38 "2021-08-03T22:32:10Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I’ve never looked into it to see how true it is But you made sure to spread it. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/39 "2021-08-03T22:41:30Z")
Oh ffs. I only explained what I was thinking of because **ASL** totally misinterpreted it. @Alessan, I found an article saying the social media companies are blaming glitches and their automated moderation algorithms: > **[Instagram, Twitter blame glitches for deleting Palestinian posts](https://www.reuters.com/article/israel-palestinians-socialmedia-idUSL8N2MU624)** > > Instagram and Twitter have blamed technical errors for deleting posts mentioning the possible eviction of Palestinians from East Jerusalem, but data rights groups fear "discriminatory" algorithms are at work and want greater transparency. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/40 "2021-08-03T22:54:05Z")
While that definitively warrants further investigation, I can’t really see it as fascism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511.md?page=3)