# How shall we define Fascism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2021, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511 "2021-07-28T09:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2021, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/41 "2021-08-03T23:13:04Z")
It probably depends if the US government is pressuring the social media companies. Which it is, but not necessarily on this issue. Social media _does_ censor criticism of the government in more repressive countries, eg: > **[Exclusive: Facebook agreed to censor posts after Vietnam slowed traffic -...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vietnam-facebook-exclusive-idUSKCN2232JX)** > > Facebook's local servers in Vietnam were taken offline early this year, slowing local traffic to a crawl until it agreed to significantly increase the censorship of "anti-state" posts for local users, two sources at the company told Reuters on... ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/42 "2021-08-04T03:00:33Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Just because you are being prevented from doing something you want to do or forced to do something you don’t doesn’t make if fascist. BTW also recently applied to the usage of the word “tyranny”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/43 "2021-08-04T05:04:01Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Fascism has already been godwinized on the internet, that seems clear. Yet it also appears that there is now a substantial movement in the US which is hard to describe in any other way. It is Populism. Not fascism. > **[What Is a Populist?](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/02/what-is-populist-trump/516525/)** > > And is Donald Trump one? _And here’s where the ideological explanation for Trump’s seeming vanity comes in. If Trump is the only authentic emissary of the people, then how does he reconcile that role with unspectacular crowd sizes, weak poll numbers, the loss of the popular vote, mass protests by people claiming he doesn’t represent them, and critical media coverage of the policies the people allegedly want?..The legitimacy of populists comes from mass opinion,” said Norris. Trump “doesn’t have legitimacy through the popular vote. He doesn’t have legitimacy through experience. He doesn’t have legitimacy through the [Republican] Party,” which institutionally has had a rocky relationship with Trump. “So he claims this mythical link to the people.”_ > **['Populism' isn't conservative. It's crazy.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/02/18/populism-republicans-and-trump-column/6752798002/)** > > Elevating gratitude over grievance can empower individuals to change themselves, their circumstances and society at large, while the focus on all-powerful cabals generates fear, frustration and helplessness. > **[Trump’s style of populism may be the reason most of his supporters aren’t...](https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2020/12/03/trumps-style-of-populism-may-be-the-reason-most-of-his-supporters-arent-taking-to-the-streets/)** > > If Republicans are so convinced that the 2020 election was rigged, why aren’t they protesting? Ben Margulies argues that the authoritarian nature of Trumpism, where his supporters are encouraged to… Sure you can draw parallels between trump and fascism, but since fascism has no hard definition, sure it matches- a to some extent. trump, Chavez, Boris, Jansa, Lukashenko, Netanyahu, Duterte, Putin, Modi, and so forth. Populism is the new fascism. [https://institute.global/policy/populists-power-perils-and-prospects-2021](https://institute.global/policy/populists-power-perils-and-prospects-2021) \*\* Donald Trump’s attempts to subvert the democratic process and peaceful transfer of power illustrate the risks associated with populist leaders, who undermine the norms and institutions on which liberal democracy depends. But Trump is just the most salient example of populists in power around the world. Our annual study takes stock of the prevalence of populist leaders globally at the start of 2021.\* \*\* We find that the number of populist leaders in power around the world is down from its mid-2010s high, but it is close to the same level as at the start of the last decade. The composition of populist leaders in power has shifted. Cultural populists now constitute the majority of all populist leaders.\* > **[Populists in Power Around the World](https://www.institute.global/insights/geopolitics-and-security/populists-power-around-world)** > > Populists in Power Around the World _While populism has no economic or social doctrine, it does, in the words of political scientist Jan-Werner Müller, have a “set of distinct claims and . . . an inner logic”.[17](https://institute.global/policy/populists-power-around-world#article-summary-footnote-17) Populism has two essential features. First, it holds that the people are locked into conflict with outsiders. Second, it claims that nothing should constrain the will of the true people._ _#### Insiders vs. Outsiders_ _Populism draws an unbridgeable divide between the people and outsiders. The people are depicted as “morally decent . . . economically struggling, hard-working, family-oriented, plain-spoken, and endowed with common sense”, in the words of sociologist Rogers Brubaker.[18](https://institute.global/policy/populists-power-around-world#article-summary-footnote-18) The people are defined in opposition to outsiders, who allegedly do not belong to the moral and hard-working true people. While many studies of populism define the essential social conflict as between the people and the elite, this report uses the more general term “outsiders”, because populists as often stoke divisions between marginalised communities as between marginalised communities and elite._ _From there, populists attribute a singular common good to the people: a policy goal that cannot be debated based on evidence but that derives from the common sense of the people.[19](https://institute.global/policy/populists-power-around-world#article-summary-footnote-19) This general will of the people, populists argue, is not represented by the cartel of self-serving establishment elites who guard status quo politics._ Now I know, you want to call them ‘fascists’ because that is a nasty name. But they are not. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/44 "2021-08-04T05:08:17Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > “Everything for the State, Nothing outside the State, Nothing against the State” was, well, stated Fascist policy in Italy. If we’re not specifically talking about Fascist Italy, we can substitute “the in-group” for “state.” And even outsiders can agree on it’s manifold flaws and corruptions whether their outsider status is by conviction or alienation to the insiders. No, once you substitute that, you are referring to Populism. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/45 "2021-08-04T11:03:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > fascism has no hard definition Objectively false. The definition of Fascism is harder than the definition of _gravity_. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Now I know, you want to call them ‘fascists’ because that is a nasty name. But they are not. Debatable. They haven’t overtly codified all of their beliefs, and the alt-right (or whatever we’d like to call the non-classical conservatives of today) is actually an extremely diverse spectrum of ideologies, but in general there is a gravitation towards fascist ideas. They certainly tend to subscribe to the idealization of the Hero, they tend to agree that morality should be derived from the state (indirectly and covertly, but ultimately they view the State as an apparatus for the enforcement of morality), they tend to assign extremely high value to history, family, and social tradition… I mean, the list is long and they check off a huge portion of it: > In the Fascist conception of history, man is man only by virtue of the spiritual process to which he contributes as a member of the family, the social group, the nation, and in function of history to which all nations bring their contribution. Hence the great value of tradition in records, in language, in customs, in the rules of social life Furthermore, the theme of a strong rejection of Socialism runs strong amidst both ideologies: > Such a conception of life makes Fascism the resolute negation of the doctrine underlying so-called scientific and Marxian socialism, the doctrine of historic materialism which would explain the history of mankind in terms of the class struggle and by changes in the processes and instruments of production, to the exclusion of all else. > > That the vicissitudes of economic life - discoveries of raw materials, new technical processes, and scientific inventions - have their importance, no one denies; but that they suffice to explain human history to the exclusion of other factors is absurd. Most alt-righter’s would agree with these statements without the slightest contention. > [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > > > “Everything for the State, Nothing outside the State, Nothing against the State” was, well, stated Fascist policy in Italy. If we’re not specifically talking about Fascist Italy, we can substitute “the in-group” for “state.” And even outsiders can agree on it’s manifold flaws and corruptions whether their outsider status is by conviction or alienation to the insiders. > > No, once you substitute that, you are referring to Populism. This I can agree with. Populism and Fascism _can_ have a **lot** of overlap but they’re _not_ the same thing: Bernie Sanders is _also_ a Populist, but certainly **not** a Fascist. Modern American right wing populists are rather distinct from Fascists - and I would argue rather contradictory - in their overt _distrust_ of the State. My best _guess_ regarding that is that this distrust would evaporate the moment the State is under their control and adopts their ideologies (and we see evidence of this with every ‘He Drained the Swamp’ post on other social media), but I can’t read minds or predict (hopefully) alternate timelines. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/46 "2021-08-04T11:19:51Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Modern American right wing populists are rather distinct from Fascists - and I would argue rather contradictory - in their overt _distrust_ of the State. My best _guess_ regarding that is that this distrust would evaporate the moment the State is under their control and adopts their ideologies (and we see evidence of this with every ‘He Drained the Swamp’ post on other social media), but I can’t read minds or predict (hopefully) alternate timelines. I think this is perfectly correct, and not contradictory at all. If the state was under their control and adopted their ideologies, I daresay you would start distrusting it yourself. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/47 "2021-08-04T13:52:43Z")
True. But the American Nationalist-Populists would never adopt the language that it’s “for the state, with the state”. They’d continue to claim it’s for God, Family and Liberty or any permutation of that set, and that “the state” is just the guardian thereof. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/48 "2021-08-04T22:34:31Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > alt-right (or whatever we’d like to call the non-classical conservatives of today) I’ve been referring to them as the far white, because they’re essentially a white supremacist party now, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/49 "2021-08-04T23:08:36Z")
Well I was only quoting Mussolini’s definition. My own smell-test for fascism has three markers: 1. I’m above you just because I was born here. (I can be a failed postcard-watercolorist or rabble-rousing pamphleteer, but I’ll claim the achievements of anyone I identify as my own too) 2. All my/our problems are not my/our fault. It’s because of “them.” 3. I’ll knife anyone I have to to rise. Even fellow members of my in-group. Especially so, actually. (Might as well pervert Darwin, since we already twisted Christ’s cross into a swastika). The true fascist always do #3, sooner or later. But look at 1 & 2: the Left do those as much as the Right. Radfems and Queer Activists and Bohos all buy into that, no denying. Back in the 90’s I read a saying in the gay, leftist Seattle Stranger I’ve never forgotten: “hereditary guilt is a Nazi concept.” ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2021, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/50 "2021-08-05T21:00:40Z")
Of course. We are all about freedom. We sanctioned facebook and twitter in order to protect your free speech, we organized armed gangs of brown shirts to protect your second amendment rights and we eliminated your right to vote in order to prevent the opposition from taking away all of your other rights. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/51 "2021-08-06T16:07:49Z")
First, we need to distinguish between fascist followers and those who design and run it—there are big differences between what they think and do. And fascism, like all political ideologies, is tied to a specific idea of economics as well. One reason “Hitler equals Stalin” is false is that large private corporations did fine under the Nazis (despite there being a Nazi “left-wing”) and did not exist in the Soviet Union. So to understand fascism, we need to look not just at the political platforms and policies but also see what economic actors the regimes support. This article is an interesting starting point re contemporary fascism. > **[Why Neoliberalism Needs Neofascists - Boston Review](https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/why-neoliberalism-needs-neofascists/)** > > The neofascist assault on democracy is a last-ditch effort on the part of neoliberal capitalism to rescue itself from crisis. The only solution is a decisive retreat from globalized finance. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/52 "2021-08-11T03:39:55Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I believe on the simplest level, Fascism expresses an idolization of a particular leader who will save the people with complete political power. I believe that describes Trumpism very well. I believe that Fascism also espouses a sort of Darwinian brutality. Historically, a common theme of Fascism has been that anyone outside of the core culture is “undesirable” and less than human. Indeed, they are often the very thing the great leader is going to “save” the people from. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511/53 "2021-08-11T20:59:31Z")
I agree. Good point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-shall-we-define-fascism/947511.md?page=2)