# How should a person accused of racism respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 12, 2021, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942 "2021-12-12T17:39:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2021, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/61 "2021-12-13T22:43:08Z")
If I’m following you, it’s something I’ve thought about sometimes. There’s an idea sometimes articulated that if someone accuses you of being racist, you shouldn’t defend yourself, you should 100% of the time apologize and try to do better. But I don’t think even most folks who articulate that position would actually hold it in all circumstances. Take the classic, “You brought up race here, that makes you the real racist, I don’t even see color” bullshit you sometimes here. If someone makes this accusation of being racist, is there _anyone_ who thinks I should apologize and try to do better? The Venn diagram of folks who say “Apologize when someone calls you out for being racist,” and people who think I’m the real racist for bringing up race, consists of two separate circles. So yeah: there are definitely circumstances where an accusation of racism is made in bad faith, or even where it’s in good faith but painfully stupid. And it’s incumbent on each person to evaluate the assertion to the best of their ability. The interesting discussion is how to make that evaluation. How much weight do you give to your own self-assessment? How much weight do you give to the lived experience of the accuser? How much to your own intent, and how much to the obvious impact? What definition of “racist” is applicable? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2021, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/62 "2021-12-13T23:09:17Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I think some posters in this thread are experiencing a failure of imagination that would be immediately remedied if they allowed themselves to indulge in a little mental exercise where their accuser was, I dunno, Donald Trump Jr., or Alan Dershowitz, or Kimberly Klacik. Two types of answer, on my part: Part one: if Donald Trump (or whoever, I’m going to simplify typing and just say Trump) accused me of having said or done something racist, the first thing I’d do would be to check whether I had said or done something that could reasonably have been perceived that way. I’d check with somebody other than Trump, see section 2 for why. If I thought he was arguably right, I’d apologize to whoever had plausibly been wronged (which might or might not be Trump.) Depending on the circumstances, I might also provide an explanation; though it certainly wouldn’t be nine pages including large chunks of my life story, none of which, however saintly it had been\*, would be relevant to whether I’d screwed up on that particular day. What I would do if I concluded that he was just flat out wrong depends so much on the circumstances that I can’t say without having more detail. If we presume that I was having a conversation with Trump directly (which is massively unlikely) and he said ‘That thing you just said was racist!’ I’d probably say ‘Is it? I didn’t realize. Let me rephrase that’ and proceed to check up on it later, see above. If what he said was ‘You mixed up these two people because you’re racist!’ I’d say ‘I’m partly faceblind, I mix everybody up’ – _and I would apologize to the people I’d mixed up_. Even if one of them was Trump. Part two: What I understand you to be asking (please correct me if I’m wrong) isn’t only about the three people specifically named, but is for me to imagine that I’m accused by someone I know or believe to be a malicious actor due to their previous behavior. And that can change things. If a market customer accuses me of having sold them rotten produce, and I don’t think I did, I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and offer them their money back or different produce, their choice; and yes I will apologize. Maybe when sorting I missed one bad cherry tomato on the bottom of the pint and by two days later most of the pint was bad. If the same customer accuses me every week of selling them rotten produce, I’m not going to keep giving their money back unless they bring in the evidence. If that customer goes all around the market and tells everybody they got sold bad stuff and want their money back without bringing in any evidence, I strongly suspect that by the time they get to the third or fourth vendor that trick ain’t working any more. In the same fashion, if a specific person has previously shown themselves to repeatedly be a malicious actor about accusing people: I’m still going to check whatever I said or did just in case they’re right this time; but if I conclude that they’re wrong, I’m not going to apologize to them. However, we’ve had no indication that in either of the cases in the OP, or in the massively vague scenario that @HMS_Irruncible gave, there was any significant prior indication that the accuser had a history of being a malicious actor. – it’s really unclear to me from the OP story what Trogan actually got fired for, but if I’m reading the story correctly, the students he mixed up were in a class of 14 students that had been going for several weeks. Presuming that Trogan’s not faceblind, the university may have concluded that he wasn’t paying enough attention to his students: much of the point of classes that small is supposed to be individual attention. Or, of course, it may have been that 9 page response that was the problem. \*not very ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2021, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/63 "2021-12-13T23:37:31Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > it’s really unclear to me from the OP story what Trogan actually got fired for If you want a source other than the typically rather sensationalist and shit-stirring New York Post, [this Fordham Observer article](https://fordhamobserver.com/66231/news/questions-remain-after-sudden-termination-of-english-professor/) seems a bit clearer. > [@](#): > > The two students whose names were mixed up sent Trogan an email after class expressing that they felt disheartened and disrespected, and believed the mistake occurred because they were both Black. […] > > Later that day, Trogan sent an email addressing the situation to all of his students in both sections of his Composition II course. […] > > One of the first-year students who was involved in the name mix-up incident said their experience in Trogan’s class prior to the incident was not great. The student, who asked to remain anonymous due to privacy concerns, told The Observer that Trogan repeatedly got their name incorrect over the course of four classes. > > “I felt really disrespected,” they said. “I did not feel heard because every time he (misnamed me) I would tell him, and it just seemed like he would brush it off or that he did not care.” […] > > Chantel Sims, FCLC ’25, was the other student involved in the name mix-up. Sims, who is also a member of The Observer’s reporting team, said she did not report Trogan to the administration so she felt like a lot of his action and communication seemed unnecessary. > > “It seemed a little excessive, like all you needed to do was say sorry and it would have been fine,” she said. “We were not actually that upset about him mixing up our names. It was more so the random things he would throw into the response.” […] > > On Sept. 26 — two days after the incident — Eva Badowska, dean of the faculty of arts and sciences and associate vice president, arts and sciences, notified Trogan that he was placed on immediate suspension with pay and benefits and that his actions were under investigation by the university. She gave him an order to not contact any Fordham student or he would face immediate termination. […] > > Badowska held a Zoom conversation with Trogan on Oct. 5. He was joined by a union representative after he employed his [Weingarten Rights](http://www.umass.edu/usa/weingarten.htm), which guarantees union representation during investigatory interviews. […] > > According to Trogan, in Badowska’s letter of termination, she did not focus on the original name mix-up. The email he sent to his students on Sept. 24 was the catalyst for termination. He also said Badowska ruled that he had not exhibited “proper development” from the Oct. 5 conversation, which also contributed to the decision. […] > > If lecturers are part of at-will employment, they can be fired for “any reason or no reason at all,” according to Jeffrey Hirsch, a researcher and professor of labor and employment law at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill School of Law. […] > > A faculty member at Fordham who has had interactions with Trogan on more than one occasion described him as a person who is “very good at stirring up energy around him but not very mindful of the consequences, for himself or others.” The faculty member, who asked for anonymity due to the sensitive nature of the topic, added that Trogan is “reactive, not reflective.” […] > > Prior to receiving the notice from Public Safety, Trogan emailed a nine-page letter to all of his 80 former students and advisees explaining his experience through the termination process. Now, I’m all in favor of more scrutiny of higher-education employment policies for non-tenured faculty that facilitate this kind of arbitrary termination. But AFAICT, under such a policy Fordham was within its rights to terminate Trogan. And based on the report of his responses to the situation, I can see where they might have been coming from. Drama-llama faculty members are a major headache for a university, and “stirring up energy” without being “mindful of the consequences” is not welcomed with open arms. My guess is that they simply figured they could find an equally good English lecturer who would be less of a drama llama, and they had an opportunity for at-will termination in this particular window of Trogan’s employment, so they let him go. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/64 "2021-12-14T00:12:48Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You seem to see apologies as some sort of contest over who is right, rather than a way to acknowledge someone else’s offense and make it clear that it wasn’t intended. You don’t seem to get why acknowledging their emotions is an important part of communication. Acknowledging someone else’s emotions and making clear you did not mean to offend them does not amount to an apology for the act in question. That is what is called a non-apology, and it is ironically exactly what **HMS\_Irruncible** advocated when you think you’ve done nothing wrong. Here are some examples, “I apologize if I offended anyone” “Sorry if I caused offense” “Sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you” “I’m sorry you feel that way” None of these are apologies, all of them are non-apologies. If you think you did nothing wrong this sort of response is the best you can muster when accused of racism, at least without lying. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/65 "2021-12-14T00:33:00Z")
To anyone who thinks a person accused of racism should apologize, do you think an apology requires remorse for the act in question? Or will regret suffice? Without lying, is it possible to show remorse for something one perceives as an innocent mistake? I would answer these questions with yes, no, and no, respectively. Seeing as this is a debate topic, I present my counterargument: _Because an apology requires remorse, and because one cannot show remorse for an innocent mistake (without lying), it is impossible to apologize for an accusation of racism if one feels the underlying act was an innocent mistake. Therefore, if a person makes an innocent mistake and is accused of racism, the proper response cannot be to merely apologize._ Either the mistake was not innocent, or the proper response is something other than an apology (such as a non-apology). ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/66 "2021-12-14T00:44:40Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Without lying, is it possible to show remorse for something one perceives as an innocent mistake? > > I would answer […] no […] An innocent mistake is a mistake without guilt or blame; without lying, a person cannot show remorse without feeling guilty / taking the blame (remorse is regret due to guilt); therefore, without lying, a person cannot show remorse for an innocent mistake. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/67 "2021-12-14T00:57:00Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > To anyone who thinks a person accused of racism should apologize, do you think an apology requires remorse for the act in question? Or will regret suffice? > > Without lying, is it possible to show remorse for something one perceives as an innocent mistake? > > I would answer these questions with yes, no, and no, respectively. Well, I’m gonna answer them with no, yes, and yes. I don’t think an apology requires feeling utterly terrible that you screwed up. I’ll apologize if I didn’t realize somebody was behind me so I let go of the door too soon. I’ll apologize if I forget that somebody doesn’t like blueberries so I put them in the dessert when I invited them to dinner. I’ll apologize if I started to put somebody else’s coat on by mistake. I wouldn’t be feeling anything I’d call ‘remorse’ about any of those things. Regret will most definitely suffice. Doesn’t need to be a huge amount of regret, either. And it was an entirely innocent mistake when, years ago, I didn’t take a much-loved cat to the vet. fast enough; with the result that her life was probably a year or several shorter than it might have been. But thirty years later I still feel remorse over it; and will show it, if the subject comes up. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/68 "2021-12-14T01:23:47Z")
In my opinion, a proper apology _ **always** _ contains a _mea culpa_: a recognition of guilt, of something you should have done, that you were responsible for doing, but didn’t do. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I’ll apologize if I didn’t realize somebody was behind me so I let go of the door too soon. I think a proper apology in this situation means you are sorry because you didn’t consider the person behind you, _and you recognize that you should have_. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I’ll apologize if I forget that somebody doesn’t like blueberries so I put them in the dessert when I invited them to dinner. This apology has meaning to me because I assume you _recognize that you should have_ been prepared for the allergy, but weren’t. You knew they had an allergy, and you knew it when you invited them, and so you had a responsibility to prepare for that. &etc. I don’t think it is possible to make a proper apology without acknowledging wrongdoing. I have to distinguish a proper apology from ritual and small talk. A man barreling down a crowded street muttering “beg your pardon” as he repeatedly butts into the people, is not apologizing. And I can tell you exactly why: the fact that he keeps doing it indicates a lack of remorse, and remorse is a necessary element of a proper apology. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/69 "2021-12-14T01:33:27Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > In my opinion, a proper apology _ **always** _ contains a _mea culpa_ : a recognition of guilt, of something you should have done, that you were responsible for doing, but didn’t do. I think fussing too hard about the “properness” of an apology risks getting one into that abovementioned “self-centered asshole” territory. Sometimes an apology is just a minor social lubricant that doesn’t necessarily correlate with one’s sincerely felt level of “remorse” or “regret”. And nitpicking such social niceties too closely suggests a sort of social miserliness where you care more about the transactional nature of the interaction than about how it makes anyone else feel. > [@Max\_S](#): > > A man barreling down a crowded street muttering “beg your pardon” as he repeatedly butts into the people, is not apologizing. And I can tell you exactly why: the fact that he keeps doing it indicates a lack of remorse, and remorse is a necessary element of a proper apology. Not necessarily: he might be someone with a motor system disorder who finds it difficult to avoid bumping into people. Again, this sort of fussy theoretical nitpicking usually ends up producing ungenerous and unrealistic attitudes towards social interaction. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/70 "2021-12-14T01:33:28Z")
So wait… it seems that the nine page email was sent after the instructor’s termination a month later, based on the _Observer._ I suppose that is technically “hours after” the mixup in class, to the _Post_’s credit, but the email the instructor sent that _he says_ was the reason for his termination was a different email entirely from the rambling nine pager. I continue to believe that we know basically nothing about what happened here, so there’s no real reason to believe that a “bad” apology had much to do with anything. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So yeah: there are definitely circumstances where an accusation of racism is made in bad faith, or even where it’s in good faith but painfully stupid. And it’s incumbent on each person to evaluate the assertion to the best of their ability. > > The interesting discussion is how to make that evaluation. How much weight do you give to your own self-assessment? How much weight do you give to the lived experience of the accuser? How much to your own intent, and how much to the obvious impact? What definition of “racist” is applicable? You are following me exactly, yes. And I think it’s interesting, too. I agree that bad faith or confused actors exist in the world, and I think it’s really important to acknowledge this when it comes to “the discourse” or whatever. On a personal level, of course I just apologize to everybody all the time because they’re a person, I’m a person. If I let the door go, of course, sorry sorry. But to the extent that there exists a hard and fast “rule” or expectation on a systemic level that any complaint is entitled to an apology without explanation or defense, that can be abused, or alternatively it can just be misused in a way that has bad results. For me, this is because an apology acknowledges a wrong, and a wrong should have consequences. We are moving more and more, correctly, toward a society where there are consequences for doing racist things, misogynist things, transphobic things. Maybe I have an overly cynical or criminal mind, or maybe I’ve just been exposed to a particularly cynical group of individuals, but I do have real concerns about “teaching” the bad guys the lesson that if they say the right words, you will back down, in a way that is sort of self-fulfilling: if you say I’m anti-Dentite, and I say “what are you talking about, how was that anti-Dentite,” then _that_ in itself is now an anti-Dentite response, because it wasn’t OK to question those kinds of complaints before now. And because being an anti-Dentite should have consequences, now let’s see the consequences. Take this with a very large quantity of salt as to the details, which I’ve changed to protect the bla bla, but I’ve seen a real case where a person, purportedly, had not heard the idiom “wouldn’t hurt a fly.” Because they had not heard that phrase they looked for an alternative explanation. The alternative they landed on was related to their identity. In an institution with a progressive and anti-ism culture, this is a real conundrum. It is, by the sort of unofficial rulebook, not really OK to say “this is not a racist phrase, you, person of an oppressed group, misunderstood.” But also, that’s not a racist phrase! It is not the right outcome for the institution to stamp that situation with the Seal of This Was Racist! If that’s the outcome, then what happens the next time? Or, worse, what if this person just wanted the consequences to occur, and didn’t have any good faith belief that there was discrimination going on? It isn’t just to accept that this is a form of racism that has no consequences, and it isn’t just to assign to this situation the consequences that come with racism. What is just is to say racist actions have consequences, and this was not one. That’s on a small scale. I can also imagine the Republican party of Texas or Pennsylvania running a campaign like this: your candidate said something sexist, your candidate said something racist, your candidate said something anti-immigrant, and based on the identity of our candidate you _have to_ apologize, and a good apology means you say you did it. Those are the rules. I think in that context, it should be absolutely OK to say “no I didn’t, this is cynical and disgusting, your identity is vampire.” The alternatives are you apologize to the Republican party for doing racism against them (not good) or you don’t do so, and you are perceived to be hypocritical about the consequences for racism (not good). Just a free shot that you’ve taught the bad guys to take at you. That’s an extreme example but I guess that’s my point; that there has to be an endpoint before that extreme. I was surprised to see in this thread that it was controversial to say that one (as you say) can’t hold that position in _all_ circumstances, or, as HMS\_Irruncible said, that “if I did nothing wrong, then my only responsibility is to offer whatever clarity seems to be missing.” Because it is possible to not have done something wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/71 "2021-12-14T01:42:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sometimes an apology is just a minor social lubricant that doesn’t necessarily correlate with one’s sincerely felt level of “remorse” or “regret”. Granted - above I called those non-apologies and I would say they are warranted in many situations, for de-escalation. Insisting on a sincere or proper apology does, in my opinion, risk getting into the self-centered asshole territory. I would say that can sometimes apply when dealing with an accusation of racism - by which I mean, if someone makes a racist faux-paus / microaggression towards you, and the person isn’t sorry, ruining everyone else’s party to demand an apology makes you the asshole. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/72 "2021-12-14T01:45:47Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > if someone makes a racist faux-paus / microaggression towards you, and the person isn’t sorry, ruining everyone else’s party to demand an apology makes you the asshole. I think the person who won’t apologize for an expression of racism is definitely higher on the list of contenders for the Asshole Prize, but I don’t dispute that aggressively insisting on apologies can be assholish behavior too. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/73 "2021-12-14T01:46:33Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > This apology has meaning to me because I assume you _recognize that you should have_ been prepared for the allergy, but weren’t. You knew they had an allergy, and you knew it when you invited them, and so you had a responsibility to prepare for that. I didn’t say allergy, I said “doesn’t like”. Not at all the same thing. I’ve got a much greater responsibility for remembering that you said you were allergic to something than for remembering what you do and don’t like the flavor of. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I don’t think it is possible to make a proper apology without acknowledging wrongdoing. True. But it can be quite a minor wrongdoing; and it can be one that was done entirely by accident, with no intention of wrongdoing whatsoever. If I apologize for starting to put your coat on by accident, I’m acknowledging that it’s your coat and other people shouldn’t use it without permission. But I’m not necessarily acknowledging that I should have had a responsibility to not do so; maybe our coats look extremely alike and there was no way to tell it was the wrong coat until you said something, or until I had it half on and realized those weren’t my gloves in the pocket. > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I can also imagine the Republican party of Texas or Pennsylvania running a campaign like this: your candidate said something sexist, your candidate said something racist, your candidate said something anti-immigrant, and based on the identity of our candidate you _have to_ apologize, and a good apology means you say you did it. Those are the rules. No, they aren’t. You don’t have to apologize to someone who’s clearly being a malicious actor about the subject. And what I was trying to tell HMS\_Irruncible wasn’t that they must apologize under any circumstance whatsoever. I was trying to point out that supposed apologies in the form of ‘if you were offended’ are likely to be seen, with reason, not as apologies at all, but as a form of attack on the accuser. ---
**Author:** ![mmmiiikkkeee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mmmiiikkkeee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmiiikkkeee)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/74 "2021-12-14T02:34:10Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Has it not occured to you that it might be an innocent mistake by the accused? I see now the question I quoted does actually say “when you feel you’ve been wrongly accused by someone who feels you have wronged them” I missed the first “feel” in the sentence and thought the situation was when you are wrongly accused. So my answer doesn’t apply to a 50:50 “we both feel the other is wrong” situation. I was talking about times when the accuser is actually wrong, and they get proven wrong. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The response that seems to me to be called for, if one really doesn’t understand the accusation, is to ask for clarification. And then actually listen to the answer. Right. Which is what I said I’d ask: “I don’t understand, what do you mean?” My two responses are quoted separately to indicate the second would be a subsequent response to the persons explanation after they hear the first. (rather than both being included in one continuous quote implying no hesitation between the two). These small details can easily get overlooked in print. Just a couple mis-seen " " marks significantly changes the meaning. So, my response is actually what you say is called for. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > "That’s not what I meant by saying X” is not the same thing as (not actual quote) ‘X has no genuinely racist meanings and you need to be corrected for saying that it does.’ Sorry you’ve lost me here, though I am trying to understand the point. Of course those two sentences don’t mean the same thing, and the second one is not what I would want to convey for two reasons: First I can’t say to you that a given sentence couldn’t have any genuine racist meaning; of course it could (and has) when spoken by someone else. I’m saying my specific X to you did not mean Y". It’s a personal response to that person at that particular time in that situation. Second I’m not saying that one needs to always be corrected for being mistaken. Decent people forgive each other (and get forgiven) of the vast majority of social goof-ups daily. I’m saying that it can help some people who don’t realize it’s actually themselves who are out of line to be corrected. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > How do you know? Did you follow him around for the rest of his life? > > I strongly suspect that he made it again in cases in which he suspected it was accurate. And I strongly suspect that in some situations he ran into during his life it was accurate. Well this is basically meaningless. Nobody follows anyone around for the rest of their lives keeping count of anything. Of course this guy continued to make assumptions through his life that were both correct and incorrect. We all do; it’s impossible not to. What’s the point? I do know that this guy did, at least for the next 3 years that I saw him daily, take both his bragging and “poor me” attitude down a few notches. He didn’t become a different person, but became more reasonable on those topics. I can only assume based on what I saw that the experience was a positive one for him. My optimistic assumption is that he’s jumped to fewer conclusions over the years since. And I’m not being condescending; the same situation showed me just how easily a person can get offended. One more example: The Canadian city of 1+million people I grew up in; several big full-sized grocery stores owed by Chinese exist who cater to and stock foods customary to that culture. But, being central land-locked Canada, there are all sorts of other Asian cultures living side-by side in much smaller numbers with no individual stores. So, making good business sense, the big Chinese supermarkets stock products from lots of similar countries (Malaysian, Laotian, Vietnamese, etc). I (non-Asian) walk in looking for fish sauce; a common Thai sauce not found at the time/place in anything but Asian stores. Can’t find it… and I can’t read most of the shelf labels as they are not printed in english. So, I ask a young guy working there if they have any Fish sauce. He got right pissed at me for daring to ask if a CHINESE!!! store stocked THAI!!! products??? He turned around and huffed off into the back rooms. He seriously looked like he wanted to start a fight with me before changing his mind and retreating. I was left standing there thinking… huh? To this day I don’t understand that kid’s attitude. Yes he could have been a 3rd world down-trodden minority lashing out trying to help his people… or just a snotty first-world teenager who knew he could get away with shit in a place where he had the social advantage… you tell me which is more likely. I could see other Thai products on the shelves of that store (very distinct alphabet). Of course they sold fish sauce (to other Asians), but to this young guy I guess round-eyes weren’t welcome that day. I’m sure the actual owners would have happily taken my money and scolded that kid for losing business… but I decided to just leave and not ask anyone else for help. One thing I didn’t feel like doing was getting on their PA system and apologize for being born non-Asian. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/75 "2021-12-14T03:29:29Z")
> [@mmmiiikkkeee](#): > > I can’t say to you that a given sentence couldn’t have any genuine racist meaning; of course it could (and has) when spoken by someone else. I’m saying my specific X to you did not mean Y". It’s a personal response to that person at that particular time in that situation. > > Second I’m not saying that one needs to always be corrected for being mistaken. Decent people forgive each other (and get forgiven) of the vast majority of social goof-ups daily. I’m saying that it can help some people who don’t realize it’s actually themselves who are out of line to be corrected. But if the given sentence of course could have racist meaning, then they’re not out of line for having challenged you about it, and shouldn’t be corrected for having challenged you about it: which is a different thing from correcting what you meant by it. Your explanation that you had a different meaning was honest, and apparently also was convincing. But that doesn’t mean that the initial challenge was out of line. > [@mmmiiikkkeee](#): > > Yes he could have been a 3rd world down-trodden minority lashing out trying to help his people… or just a snotty first-world teenager who knew he could get away with shit in a place where he had the social advantage… you tell me which is more likely. I think it’s more likely that you appeared to him to be thing number 328 that had gone wrong that week and he’d kept his mouth shut about the first 327 but couldn’t manage to do it any longer. In the process he may well have missed that you weren’t actually 328 but only looked a little like it at first glance. However neither of us was in his head so maybe it was actually one of your suggestions. > [@mmmiiikkkeee](#): > > One thing I didn’t feel like doing was getting on their PA system and apologize for being born non-Asian. I certainly wouldn’t have recommended that. That would have been the equivalent of the 9 page email. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/76 "2021-12-14T03:53:36Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > You seem to see apologies as some sort of contest over who is right, rather than a way to acknowledge someone else’s offense and make it clear that it wasn’t intended. You don’t seem to get why acknowledging their emotions is an important part of communication. > > Acknowledging someone else’s emotions and making clear you did not mean to offend them does not amount to an apology for the act in question. That is what is called a non-apology, and it is ironically exactly what **HMS\_Irruncible** advocated when you think you’ve done nothing wrong. Here are some examples, > > “I apologize if I offended anyone” > “Sorry if I caused offense” > “Sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you” > “I’m sorry you feel that way” > > None of these are apologies, all of them are non-apologies. If you think you did nothing wrong this sort of response is the best you can muster when accused of racism, at least without lying. You may note that I have a previous post in this thread. In that post, I gave examples of how you could apologize in both of the situations in the OP . Notice that none of them use your trite phrases. None of them pretend like it’s the other person’s fault for being offended, like your phrases do. Sure, it’s possible to acknowledge you hurt someone without apologizing. But, if you want to show empathy, you would also need to add that you regret what happened, and make an effort not to do it again. Otherwise you’re just saying “I hurt you, but I don’t care.” And, if you have all three of those things, then you have an apology. What you shouldn’t do is what @HMS_Irruncible or @Velocity or other posters said: argue passionately that you are in the right and refuse to back down. Doing that is what the people in the OP did, and is why they came off as jerks. And, no, I’m obviously not talking about people who lie. But how often do you find a person of color who lies about what they think is racist? It’s not common enough to make a special case out of it. Just because you can come up with an edge case where a general principle doesn’t apply, it doesn’t negate the entire principle. Obviously, if you didn’t actually do what they thought you did, you can’t apologize for that. But you can apologize for not being clear on what you did do. You can always come up with something you did that you should have done better, because no one is perfect. And, as long as you can do that, you can give an apology. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/77 "2021-12-14T08:47:02Z")
> [@mmmiiikkkeee](#): > > I found myself actually set up by a Karen-type racist victim You’re using the word Karen in a _very_ different way from the general use. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/78 "2021-12-14T09:17:36Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > A faculty member at Fordham who has had interactions with Trogan on more than one occasion described him as a person who is “very good at stirring up energy around him but not very mindful of the consequences, for himself or others.” That’s an awfully long roundabout way to say “troll”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/79 "2021-12-14T09:22:50Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > if someone makes a racist faux-paus / microaggression towards you, and the person isn’t sorry, ruining everyone else’s party to demand an apology makes you the asshole. No. A minority merely standing up for their deserved dignity as a human being is never an asshole, no matter how much it makes Whiteness flustered. > [@Kimstu](#): > > I don’t dispute that aggressively insisting on apologies can be assholish behavior too. I do dispute it (in the bare scenario Max outlines). ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/80 "2021-12-14T11:46:15Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m pretty face blind. I know for sure that I’ve mixed up people and mistaken people for other people, and people have definitely done that to me as well. Same. Faceblind (regardless of race) _and_ really bad at remembering names _and_ generally socially awkward. It’s a good thing I’m not a teacher because all my students would be called “hey you”. (Funnily enough, the spouse _is_ a teacher and remembers every damn one of her hundreds of students. But then she’s very good at her job.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942.md?page=5)