# How should a person accused of racism respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 12, 2021, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942 "2021-12-12T17:39:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/101 "2021-12-14T22:43:14Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > It’s nothing sort of mind-boggling that participants of this thread cannot even _conceive_ that there might be a situation where someone was accused of doing/saying something racist, yet it wasn’t. Sure we can conceive of it; such situations happen all the time. We just don’t buy your claims that a completely vague hypothetical situation about which we know nothing at all except the hypothesis that “someone was accused of doing/saying something racist, yet it wasn’t” can be assigned a specific protocol of apology or non-apology. Describe specific circumstances and we can discuss what specific actions we think would be appropriate in response to them. Refuse to be more specific about the circumstances than the vague statement “someone was accused of doing/saying something racist, yet it wasn’t”, and your specific prescriptions for how to behave in response to that situation remain entirely unconvincing. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/102 "2021-12-14T23:57:22Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > certain things are imputed by the fact that nobody is even willing to _entertain_ a scenario in which an accuser got heated up over something that turned out to be entirely innocent. And there’s no mistaking this point - everyone in this thread who has been faced with this hypothetical, has chosen to either (a) fight the hypothetical, or (b) suggest that everyone who makes an accusation of racism is entitled to some sort of apology, regardless of whether the accusation was utterly baseless. Wanna show me where I did either of those things? Unless, of course, by “fight the hypothetical” you mean "refuse to give an exact description for how someone should respond that would be correct for every possible incident that could be described as ‘an accuser got heated up over something that turned out to be entirely innocent.’ " In fact, here is me saying the exact opposite, and even giving an example of a case in which that might happen: > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > No, I didn’t mean to say that every accusation is always valid. What I do mean to say is that if you’re entirely sure you said nothing offensive, even after asking the other person why they think it was offensive and listening to the answer: then just say that, including your reasons. (For example: ‘I used the word Indian because that’s part of the official name which that group of people uses for themselves, and I was referring to that specific group in that context’.) > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I’m sure there’s an occasional case in which it’s happened. – and note that there I was referring not only to someone getting worked up about something innocent, but to someone getting deliberately worked up about something they also thought was innocent in order to get some sort of supposed benefit. And here are two more posts in which I’m clearly quite capable of imagining that someone makes an accusation of racism when there isn’t any, not just in error, but even maliciously: > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > In the same fashion, if a specific person has previously shown themselves to repeatedly be a malicious actor about accusing people: I’m still going to check whatever I said or did just in case they’re right this time; but if I conclude that they’re wrong, I’m not going to apologize to them. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > You don’t have to apologize to someone who’s clearly being a malicious actor about the subject. > > And what I was trying to tell HMS\_Irruncible wasn’t that they must apologize under any circumstance whatsoever. I was trying to point out that supposed apologies in the form of ‘if you were offended’ are likely to be seen, with reason, not as apologies at all, but as a form of attack on the accuser. How on earth you can get out of all of that the following is utterly beyond me: > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > It’s nothing sort of mind-boggling that participants of this thread cannot even _conceive_ that there might be a situation where someone was accused of doing/saying something racist, yet it wasn’t. [. . .] > People cannot even _conceive_ that there’s a situation where someone could be falsely accused of racism. They cannot admit it could happen _even in a make-believe world_ . The accused is always guilty. With that being the apparent situation, anyone accused of racism has only two choices: fall on their knees and beg forgiveness, or assert themselves and prepare to lose everything. Would you care to try replying to what people are actually saying? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/103 "2021-12-15T00:19:26Z")
So, i can think of several hypotheticals where i didn’t intend to be racist, but someone accused me of racism: 1. there’s been a misunderstanding. They misheard me, or misunderstood me. I apologize and try to clear up the misunderstanding. “Oh, I’m sorry, this word sounds like that word, I’m sorry you heard it that way. I’ll try to be more clear in the future.” 2. there’s been a misunderstanding. I said something that is offensive even though i didn’t realize it was. I apologize and plan not to say that again. 3. i did something that might or might not have been influenced by my unconscious bias. I apologize. "I’m sorry i called you by that other person’s name. I’m partially face blind, but i should be more careful. I’ll try not to do that going forward. 4. a malicious actor called me a racist as a way to attack me. There’s no way to win this one, only ways to lose. I keep my head down and hope the other guy loses more than i do in the field of public opinion. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/104 "2021-12-15T07:01:52Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > But that’s the case in actual parties, too. For example during a house party, if you are shouting over the music to demand an apology (or worse, if you turn off the music / cause the music to be turned off because you are making such a disruption), IMO you are automatically ~~the~~ an asshole. No. Say I’m Jewish, and someone finds this out, and drunkenly starts following me around at the house party making Nazi salutes. I am _not_ an asshole for asking him to stop and apologize, even if I do so loudly enough that I’m heard over the music/stop the music so he can hear me. Because the presence of a Nazi (or an asshole who uses Nazism as trolling), that needs to be addressed _by everyone_ (see my sigline). _Everyone_ prioritizing maintaining a fake calm over dealing with an issue like a Nazi presence is the assole. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Same-same for other racists, or people using racist expressions and not apologizing when called on it. Fun ≯ safety ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/105 "2021-12-15T08:35:52Z")
The problem with your hypothetical is that pretty much everyone who has ever been accused of racism feels the accusation is unjust. By starting with that premise, you’re skipping over what is perhaps the most important part-- examining yourself honestly to see if perhaps there might have been some unconscious bias at play. But I will offer this hilarious story making the rounds on Reddit, in which a white woman leaves the office in tears and sends an email demanding racial sensitivity training because her colleague made a joke about orange cats being dumb: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/rfwgmc/aita\_for\_perpetuating\_ethnic\_stereotypes\_about/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/rfwgmc/aita_for_perpetuating_ethnic_stereotypes_about/) Sounds like this person handled the baseless accusation of racism perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/106 "2021-12-15T10:34:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There is no “presumption of innocence” There should be. If you make the claim then it is up to you to back it up and the importance of doing so scales with the consequences and damage of the claim being made. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/107 "2021-12-15T11:17:06Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Saying that every accusation of racism is always and only about reinforcing the supremacy of the speaker. Saying that it is “always and only” about that is clearly also saying that there has never been an accusation of racism that wasn’t about that. I can’t really see any other way to interpret your words. OK, let me help. There are real accusations of racism. More real accusations than false ones. But the rituals under discussion aren’t intended to figure out truth vs. falsehood, they are intended to reinforce the supremacy of the accusation, and elicit deference in its face. And you can see this by the strenuous resistance to the suggestion that some of these accusations may be entirely meritless, the insistence that every such dispute requires an apology by the accused _regardless of what actually transpired_. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/108 "2021-12-15T11:36:57Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > OK, let me help. There are real accusations of racism. More real accusations than false ones. But the rituals under discussion aren’t intended to figure out truth vs. falsehood, they are intended to reinforce the supremacy of the accusation, and elicit deference in its face. Imagine you were in a shop and upon leaving were stopped by a store detective and accused of shoplifting. You’ve done no such thing but the detective shows you footage of you standing by the razors and fumbling beneath your coat in a manner that could be considered suspicious. there is no other evidence that can exonerate you. In that scenario you do not owe anyone an apology. You’ve done nothing wrong and it is not up to you to prove your innocence. The perception that you were doing wrong is not enough to prove that you actually were. And this is in a world where shoplifting does happen, where the accusations levelled are more often valid than not, where everyone has the potential to steal, where everyone is a little bit dishonest. It doesn’t matter. Being accused of dishonesty is a big issue, potentially career threatening or socially limiting and I think we would all expect such a forceful claim to be backed up with evidence. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/109 "2021-12-15T13:41:36Z")
There’s an important difference between that and the accusation of racism. In the accusation of shoplifting, the actual facts are in question. Did you take something and hide it in your coat? And you probably can prove your innocence by demonstrating there are no razors in your coat. In most accusations of racism the facts are not in question. You said these words. Everyone agrees you said these words. If you didn’t, it falls under item 1 in my list, there’s been a misunderstanding. Apologize for inadvertent hurt, try not to do it again, and move on. Which points out a second difference. If you didn’t shoplift, you didn’t actually hurt the store. If you said something that was perceived as racist you DID hurt the person who heard it. If i accidentally stick my elbow out as you come by and you are hurt bumping into it, i apologize for the hurt, even though it was inadvertent. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/110 "2021-12-15T13:58:38Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > In most accusations of racism the facts are not in question. You said these words. Everyone agrees you said these words. Not everyone agrees that “those words” constitute racism. How have you determined that they do other than just taking the accusers word for it? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/111 "2021-12-15T14:03:46Z")
nevermind ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/112 "2021-12-15T14:21:59Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > There should be. There should also be a world without systemic racism, yet here we are. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/113 "2021-12-15T14:23:30Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > shoplift That’s a bit sexist of you. I feel hurt by that. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/114 "2021-12-15T14:27:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There should also be a world without systemic racism, yet here we are. I agree, yet it is possible to exist in such a world whilst not assuming either malice or racism as a starting point. If you judge each case on its merits you still end up punishing the truly racist incidents but not punishing those that are not. Call me an old softy if you like but I think that is a better way to live. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/115 "2021-12-15T14:35:18Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I agree, yet it is possible to exist in such a world whilst not assuming either malice or racism as a starting point. Sure, if your name is Candide. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If you judge each case on its merits Every case judged on its merits or not still requires starting assumptions. You privilege the presumption of innocence, I don’t. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > you still end up punishing the truly racist incidents but not punishing those that are not. You also let a lot of _actual_ racist shit fly because “Who can say?” or “it’s their word against yours”. Racists rely on the combo of presumption of innocence and plausible deniability, it helps them thrive. BTW, I initially balked at “_truly_ racist” but I’ve decided to let it slide, because next thing we’re swimming in the “microagressions don’t exist” and “narratives aren’t evidence” cesspool, and I’ve just started my holidays and can’t be arsed tonight. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/116 "2021-12-15T14:39:07Z")
This post isn’t as clever as you seem to think it is. **puzzlegal** already covered this kind of thing: > [@puzzlegal](#): > > a malicious actor called me a racist as a way to attack me. There’s no way to win this one, only ways to lose. I keep my head down and hope the other guy loses more than i do in the field of public opinion. Would you like to know which way the field of public opinion is going to go on your gotcha? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/117 "2021-12-15T14:39:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Every case judged on its merits or not still requires starting assumptions. **You privilege the presumption of innocence** , I don’t. Bolding is mine. I think that is a terribly harmful attitude. We have a million miles between us, I simply refuse to live my life like that but you do you. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/118 "2021-12-15T14:40:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Would you like to know which way the field of public opinion is going to go on your gotcha? I truly do not care. And you are racist for implying I would care. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/119 "2021-12-15T14:41:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > following me around at the house party making Nazi salutes. I am _not_ an asshole for asking him to stop and apologize, even if I do so loudly enough that I’m heard over the music/stop the music so he can hear me IMO, if he stops and you are still disturbing the peace over an apology, you are still an asshole. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/120 "2021-12-15T14:41:38Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Bolding is mine. I think that is a terribly harmful attitude. It’s a fine legal principle, no doubt. But society is not a court and I’m not going to ignore the overwhelming evidence of pervasive racism just for everyone’s fee-fees. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942.md?page=7)