# How should a person accused of racism respond? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 12, 2021, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942 "2021-12-12T17:39:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/141 "2021-12-15T15:44:43Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The person making the positive claim needs to substantiate it. Jeez, what happened to the presumption of innocence for the accuser? I swear you just mentioned that a few posts ago. Anyway, I learned from one of the trans athletes threads that you and I just talk past each other. I’m happy to take that blame – I’m not communicating well with you or not understanding what you’re saying. So, rather than just go around and around with you again, I’ll just bow out. There’s nothing more for me to add than what **puzzlegal** and **LHoD** have posted. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/142 "2021-12-15T15:57:51Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Jeez, what happened to the presumption of innocence for the accuser? I swear you just mentioned that a few posts ago. In what way does my approach not presume the innocence of the accuser? “presumption of innocence” does not mean that you automatically assume that an accusation is valid. That is where perhaps you are misunderstanding the concept. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/143 "2021-12-15T15:59:47Z")
Presumption of innocence of the accuser means you assume the person who claims to have been offended actually was offended, and is speaking up in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/144 "2021-12-15T16:02:41Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > There’s no situation where it’s appropriate to write a 9-page manifesto about how you’re the victim and your accusers are the real oppressors. Absolutely none. If you do that, then you deserve to get fired on principle. Okay, I give up. I made it 19 posts into the thread, and I don’t think I have it in me to read the whole thing. So I give up. I just want to know one thing: How can an EMAIL be nine pages long? Emails don’t have page breaks. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/145 "2021-12-15T16:05:02Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Presumption of innocence of the accuser means you assume the person who claims to have been offended actually was offended, and is speaking up in good faith. Correct, If you think they are lying about being offended then you’d best be able to back it up. It doesn’t mean that their accusation of racism should be assumed as true. They can be offended, sincere and wrong, all at the same time ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/146 "2021-12-15T16:05:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If you were misunderstood (for instance, you said the word for “that” while speaking Chinese, which is pronounced na geh or ni geh, sounds very similar to the N word,) Sure, if you are speaking Chinese, and say something like, \ and someone overheard what they thought was the N-word, then a quick explanation as to what was actually said is warranted. If you are a professor who says, \ specifically because you _know_ what that word sounds like, and want to get a reaction out of your class, then maybe it is you that should apologize. > [@Velocity](#): > > quoted out of context, then **strongly defend yourself.** You’re not wrong, your attackers are the ones who are wrong. Sometimes everyone is wrong, sometimes no one is wrong. As you are not actually being attacked, strongly defending yourself is most likely the worst action you can take. By seeing anyone making a complaint as an attacker who is wrong and needs to be put down, you compound the error, and prevent any possibility of coming to a mutual understanding. But at least you get to claim that you were right. Well, to anyone who can stand to listen to you. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/147 "2021-12-15T16:07:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What I strongly disagree with is **Max\_S** ’s characterization of demanding an apology _automatically_ (and so, by implication, _always_ ) being an asshole thing to do. Oof–you’re right, I totally missed his “automatically” business. Yeah, when a person’s racism is egregious, it’s time to stop business as usual and address it fully. > [@MrDibble](#): > > although note that you example isn’t an aggrieved minority responding to actual racism directed at themselves, but rather a heated philosophical discussion about an outside issue. Assuming Jennifer isn’t Black, you’re right–and I was trying to write it to make it as clear an example of assholery as I could. But even if Jennifer is Black (as was, I’m pretty sure, the author of the actual article I read and which I can’t find now), and even if she believed the Land Back movement was an anti-Black movement that marginalized the experiences of Black Americans like herself, it could be a misplaced accusation of racism. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/148 "2021-12-15T16:16:49Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Assuming Jennifer isn’t Black, you’re right Even if she was Black, it’s not the same - the example I was addressing was someone experiencing racism/microagression right there at the party. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/149 "2021-12-15T16:17:30Z")
When printed out? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/150 "2021-12-15T16:19:13Z")
> [@Esprise\_Me](#): > > I will offer this hilarious story making the rounds on Reddit OK. So I went down that rabbit hole and a couple of links in found myself reading this sentence: > Pam is NOT to apply margarine to any of her coworkers. which caused me to laugh so hard that the orange cat who’s a member of this household (and who seems to be of normal feline intelligence) came over to find out what was going on. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > But the rituals under discussion aren’t intended to figure out truth vs. falsehood What, the ones about checking to make sure you understand why the accusation’s being made and considering whether it might or might not be true, as part of deciding on a response? Those “rituals” most certainly are intended to figure out truth vs. falsehood; as well as to sort out the many cases that fall somewhere in the middle. And they’ve been recommended, over and over, in this discussion. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > And you can see this by the strenuous resistance to the suggestion that some of these accusations may be entirely meritless, the insistence that every such dispute requires an apology by the accused _regardless of what actually transpired_ . There is no such resistance, and there is no such insistence. People are saying the exact opposite. – I quoted myself above, saying the exact opposite, four times over. Post #102, which you appear to be ignoring. > [@Isamu](#): > > No, it was repeatedly said above that people accused of racism should just apologize first. No, it has repeatedly been said above that people accused of racism should consider why the accusation was made and should apologize if whatever they said/did could have reasonably seemed to be racist, even if that wasn’t their intent. Which is not at all the same thing. And see immediately above in this post. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Imagine you were in a shop and upon leaving were stopped by a store detective and accused of shoplifting. > You’ve done no such thing but the detective shows you footage of you standing by the razors and fumbling beneath your coat in a manner that could be considered suspicious. there is no other evidence that can exonerate you. > > In that scenario you do not owe anyone an apology. You’ve done nothing wrong and it is not up to you to prove your innocence. The perception that you were doing wrong is not enough to prove that you actually were. > > And this is in a world where shoplifting does happen, where the accusations levelled are more often valid than not, where everyone has the potential to steal, where everyone is a little bit dishonest. It doesn’t matter. Being accused of dishonesty is a big issue, potentially career threatening or socially limiting and I think we would all expect such a forceful claim to be backed up with evidence. And if that scenario the detective then proceeds to plant unpurchased razors on you and insist you be arrested, even though there’s no evidence, then they would indeed be utterly in the wrong. But in that scenario the store detective is not at fault for checking whether you stole any razors; because on their video you sure looked like you were stealing some razors. You appear to be claiming that because it’s not possible to be certain beyond all reasonable doubt at the moment the incident occurs that somebody’s not innocent, nobody should ever investigate to find out whether there is indeed evidence. Which would be the equivalent of saying that police can never investigate a case, because the potential suspects haven’t already been convicted in court after a proper trial. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If you judge each case on its merits you still end up punishing the truly racist incidents but not punishing those that are not. You can’t possibly judge each case on its merits unless you investigate each case. Many such cases can’t be properly investigated without discussing them with the parties concerned. > [@RitterSport](#): > > I don’t see why the person who maybe made a racist statement should enjoy the presumption of innocence, while we’re supposed to assume that the person who was ostensibly offended is acting in bad faith or has no right to be offended. Also QFT. Exactly. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Excluded middle. Why not avoid assuming that either of them is in the wrong? It’s quite possible that neither of them is in the wrong. But I don’t think @RitterSport was necessarily saying otherwise. > [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > following me around at the house party making Nazi salutes. I am _not_ an asshole for asking him to stop and apologize, even if I do so loudly enough that I’m heard over the music/stop the music so he can hear me > > IMO, if he stops and you are still disturbing the peace over an apology, you are still an asshole. If it were my house, I’d be disturbing the peace by throwing the Nazi-saluter out of the house. If it weren’t my house, and whoever did live there didn’t throw him out, I’d be leaving that party, and I’d never go to another one there. And I’d make damn sure that everybody knew why. Some peaces need to be disturbed. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/151 "2021-12-15T16:37:44Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > OK, let me help. There are real accusations of racism. More real accusations than false ones. But the rituals under discussion aren’t intended to figure out truth vs. falsehood, they are intended to reinforce the supremacy of the accusation, and elicit deference in its face. Very well said. Weaponizing the accusations of some horrific so-called transgression so it can be abused has been a tactic used throughout history. Religious inquisitions, witch trials, enemies of the revolution etc are all examples where it’s beneficial to make false accusations. It’s weird that the motives of the accuser are rarely considered. The only way to deal with this is by not accepting the flawed premise that an accuser is somehow more virtuous than anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/152 "2021-12-15T17:08:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > **Max\_S** ’s characterization of demanding an apology _automatically_ (and so, by implication, _always_ ) being an asshole thing to do. I would clarify, ruining the party for everyone (or disturbing the peace) by demanding an apology. Taking a person aside and demanding an apology does not necessarily make you an asshole. Making an episode that interferes with uninvolved people, for a mere apology, does. I see our disagreement as similar to the trolley problem. I would judge a person standing up for their personal dignity, if it _inconveniences_ uninvolved people. Re: safety v. fun, I would not demand an apology from a drunk person following me around and making Hitler salutes. I don’t know what your experience is with the equivalent for you, but without further information this person’s continued presence is an immediate threat to my safety. Disturbing people to get a drunk man off my back is reasonable. _Confronting a drunk Hitlerite after he backs off_ is asking for trouble. Unless I have a mob of people at my back ready to beat him up _for not apologizing_, which is unlikely if they let him follow me around to begin with, trying to coerce an apology (because dignity?) goes against my interests in personal safety. ETA: I mean, are you going to tell women to loudly demand apologies from drunk-ass men propositioning at parties, who have already backed off? Because that’s what you think a person should do in the interest of _safety_? If not, why would that hold for a minority person and a racist? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/153 "2021-12-15T17:12:09Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Weaponizing the accusations of some horrific so-called transgression so it can be abused has been a tactic used throughout history. Religious inquisitions, witch trials, enemies of the revolution etc are all examples where it’s beneficial to make false accusations. So, those are mostly examples of political movements to remove an enemy. The inquisition was the Christian Spaniards asserting their control over Spain, and removing the remnants of Islamic rule, including those who were sympathetic to the Muslims, for instance. And in those cases, fighting the accusation was definitely the losing move. I mean, maybe you’d prefer to be killed without confessing than to return to your regular life, but a lot of people don’t. Back in our world, where I don’t believe there is a political movement to kill all the infidels… I’ve admitted to having been accused of bigotry. And you know what? I wasn’t “punished” for it. I was accused in part because my audience recognized that it was not my intention to demean anyone. So they called me out. I learned something. I apologized. I moved on. This is a more realistic scenario for most people who aren’t actually bigots, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/154 "2021-12-15T17:15:23Z")
Yeah, this drunk Hitlerite example is pretty extreme. If it were my party, I would remove him. Involving the police if necessary. If it were not my party, I’d alert the host. If the host didn’t take effective steps to protect me I would leave the party. I wouldn’t be looking for an apology because I’d be avoiding that person, not engaging with him. You seek an apology from someone you want to have ongoing social interactions with. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/155 "2021-12-15T17:18:36Z")
Exactly, it makes much more sense to either leave or alert the host (if available). If this is a person I interact with in other situations, I ask for the apology when he is _not_ drunk, in a more safe environment. And it will likely be a non-apology or an apology for being drunk in the first place (both of which I would probably accept). ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/156 "2021-12-15T17:21:11Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > You can’t possibly judge each case on its merits unless you investigate each case. Many such cases can’t be properly investigated without discussing them with the parties concerned Exactly, and reserve judgement until that is done. It really doesn’t sound like you disagree with my basic point. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/157 "2021-12-15T17:31:25Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I don’t know what your experience is with the equivalent for you The equivalent for me is someone cracking racist jokes under the mistaken impression everyone in earshot was equally White and equally racist. And defenestration (or rather, deportation) did, in fact, ensue. Because I raised it with the host as a safety issue. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I mean, are you going to tell women to loudly demand apologies from drunk-ass men propositioning at parties, who have already backed off? _I’m_ not going to tell women to do anything. But _if_ they did it, I wouldn’t call them assholes. You seem to think “backing off” makes everything OK. I don’t. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Because that’s what you think a person should do in the interest of _safety_ ? I _am_ going on the assumption that the rest of the party are not sexual perverts/racists, so actual assault is not an issue. _Bodily_ safety was not the kind of safety I was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/158 "2021-12-15T17:35:53Z")
And in this world there is political utility in making those accusations as well. Now death isn’t the penalty here but the consequences can be quite damaging. Furthermore, and just as importantly, the chilling effect of the fear of accusation is quite real. That’s why you see pushback against so-called cancel culture. Folks from classical liberals to conservatives understand the history of this ongoing tactic and rightfully are concerned. Now of course there are real instances of bigotry. No one is denying that. What I am saying is that in an environment where accusations can be tactical one shouldn’t reflexively defer to and beg forgiveness from any random accuser. Especially since the accusations and reactions of the accused are not just directed at individuals at a party behaving boorishly. We have corporations, universities, police forces, municipal and state governments, etc accused of bigotry and making efforts to placate such accusers instead of rationally realizing that there is no placation possible. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/159 "2021-12-15T17:40:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I _am_ going on the assumption that the rest of the party are not sexual perverts/racists, so actual assault is not an issue. If actual assault weren’t in the cards, there wouldn’t be a drunk man following me around room to room making Hitler salutes. Or a drunk man following and harassing a woman at a party. The same cannot be said of a person cracking racist jokes for laughs. In that case I can just walk away without escalating. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2021, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942/160 "2021-12-15T17:41:24Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > > > OK, let me help. There are real accusations of racism. More real accusations than false ones. But the rituals under discussion aren’t intended to figure out truth vs. falsehood, they are intended to reinforce the supremacy of the accusation, and elicit deference in its face. > > Very well said. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > What, the ones about checking to make sure you understand why the accusation’s being made and considering whether it might or might not be true, as part of deciding on a response? > > Those “rituals” most certainly are intended to figure out truth vs. falsehood; as well as to sort out the many cases that fall somewhere in the middle. And they’ve been recommended, over and over, in this discussion. > [@octopus](#): > > Weaponizing the accusations of some horrific so-called transgression so it can be abused has been a tactic used throughout history. Religious inquisitions, witch trials, enemies of the revolution etc are all examples where it’s beneficial to make false accusations. You appear to be responding not to what’s actually been said in this thread, but to the Spanish Inquisition. I wish I could say that I had not been expecting that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-person-accused-of-racism-respond/955942.md?page=9)