# How should a school deal with pantsing? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 28, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644 "2009-04-28T17:59:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/161 "2009-04-29T16:56:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What would happen if you pulled this “prank” at the mall? I honestly want to know why you think it’s different than doing it at a school. > > Also, are you asserting that 18 year olds should not be held legally accountable for their actions? Again with the malls. What is it with you and malls? I’m not going to answer any more of your questions. You are obviously not interested in the answers. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/162 "2009-04-29T16:57:37Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > What you are “reasonably sure” something “could be” is not the same as “indisputable.” When I typed that post, I meant for the “indisputable” part to apply to the respectives statuses of “adult” and minor." It was in response to a series of posts trying to minimize that factor, or ridicule it by exaggerating the legal status to “man attacking baby” type characterizations of the opposing view. ---
**Author:** ![Brilharma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Brilharma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brilharma)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/163 "2009-04-29T17:00:08Z")
Some people keep referring to it as “ripping” a girl’s pants off, or “tearing” a girl’s pants off. These seem to me to be loaded adjectives that quite possibly do not describe the events at all. In my experience with pantsing, it was always more like “tugging”, “slipping” or “yanking” pants off. Ripping a girl’s pants off makes it seem like an act that would take time (as alluded to by the fact that someone mentioned getting out camera phones) but I don’t think I’ve ever witnessed a pantsing that took more than 5 seconds from pants up to pants up again. And, yes, it happened at the mall, too. (Or, rather, Wal-Mart, because that’s as close to a mall as we had within a reasonable distance) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/164 "2009-04-29T17:00:59Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Again with the malls. What is it with you and malls? > > I’m not going to answer any more of your questions. You are obviously not interested in the answers. If I wasn’t interested, I wouldn’t ask. You’ve basically conceded that in any other public place, this would be charged as a crime. That amounts to a _de facto_ argument on your part that the law either is, or should be, different in a school building than any other place. It is perfectly fair to ask why you believe that. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/165 "2009-04-29T17:06:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If I wasn’t interested, I wouldn’t ask. You’ve basically conceded that in any other public place, this would be charged as a crime. That amounts to a _de facto_ argument on your part that the law either is, or should be, different in a school building than any other place. It is perfectly fair to ask why you believe that. I’m not arguing that it’s a crime in one place and not another. I’m arguing that this alarmist “Won’t someone think of the children?!?” rhetoric is dumb. Upthread someone mentioned that driving 2 mph over the speed limit is just as illegal as driving 50 mph over. Just so. But arguing that going 2 mph over is recklessly dangerous, puts innocent little children at risk, and these menaces to society should be locked up forever is worthy of little more than a rolleyes. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/166 "2009-04-29T17:07:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It factually IS a sexual assault of a minor by an adult. There’s no way around it… [QUOTE=Scumpup] Then you should have no problem providing us with the statute or court decision establishing that fact. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Are you asserting that it’s legal? [/QUOTE] Dio, you’re on thin ice here. There is obviously a lot of ground between “factually sexual assault” and “legal”. You should be willing to explain why you consider that this case requires the conclusion that it was sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/167 "2009-04-29T17:11:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So you think it’s no big deal to take naked pictures of little girls and pass them around to other children? You think that does no harm to the victim? Can you stop this. No one was taking pictures of little children. A teenage girl showed her teenage boyfriend her breasts and let him take a picture. The teenage boy showed his friends because that was quite likely the best day of his life (hyperbole, live with it). At no time were any “children” being violated. So cram it with this line of debate. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/168 "2009-04-29T17:12:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Without their consent? Yes. So is ripping the clothes off of unwilling children. How are you to prove consent/lack of consent when a particular practice is the norm? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/169 "2009-04-29T17:14:04Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > A teenage girl showed her teenage boyfriend her breasts and let him take a picture. The teenage boy showed his friends because that was quite likely the best day of his life (hyperbole, live with it). At no time were any “children” being violated. But what if that little child was your mother? At the MALL?!?!?!?!? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/170 "2009-04-29T17:16:14Z")
A 13 year old is a child. Not just by law, but by any other reasonable standard as well. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/171 "2009-04-29T17:17:18Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > This all reminds me of the case from a few months back where a 14 year old boy took a semi-nude picture of his 13 year old girlfriend then passed it around to his friends. Alarmed parents asked for the heads of these monsters who were doing major harm to the THE CHILDRUUUUN! You also seem to overlook that in certain situations our system allows for individuals to be treated under a higher age bracket, but not the reverse. The only potentialy analogous situation I can think of is individuals who are held not legally responsible due to a “lack of capacity”. That is the reason minors are held to a different/lower standard than adults, because they are considered incapable of apprecuiating the implications of their actions. Mentally deficient people are treated similarly. Not because they are “children”, but because like children, they lack capacity. So you won’t respond to my “strawman.” Fine. Would you do me the service of explaining exactly what strawman I constructed? I’m clearly no logic/debate master. But as I see it, you’ve repeatedly opined that the current system, in which people who have attained a certain age are legally treated as adults, is “dumb.” Are you saying it is a strawman for me to say that your position implies that we would be better off either with no such system or a different one? And, if you believe a different system would be better, I am interested in hearing particulars. If folks are agreed that my position constitutes erecting a strawman, I will appreciate being educated. But until I hear that, I’ll consider your designation of my position to be “a strawman” and your refusal to respond, the intellectual equivalent of your oft-expressed criticism of various assertions/policies as “dumb.” ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/172 "2009-04-29T17:18:15Z")
To answer your question about what if you did this at the mall… I live in PA, so I’ll go with our laws. Probably I’d get charged with [disorderly conduct.](http://law.onecle.com/pennsylvania/crimes-and-offenses/00.055.003.000.html) > [@](#): > > § 5503. Disorderly conduct. > (a) Offense defined.–A person is guilty of disorderly > conduct if, with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance > or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he: > (1) engages in fighting or threatening, or in violent or > tumultuous behavior; > (2) makes unreasonable noise; > (3) uses obscene language, or makes an obscene gesture; > or > (4) creates a hazardous or physically offensive > condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose of > the actor. > (b) Grading.–An offense under this section is a misdemeanor > of the third degree if the intent of the actor is to cause > substantial harm or serious inconvenience, or if he persists in > disorderly conduct after reasonable warning or request to > desist. Otherwise disorderly conduct is a summary offense. > (c) Definition.–As used in this section the word “public” > means affecting or likely to affect persons in a place to which > the public or a substantial group has access; among the places > included are highways, transport facilities, schools, prisons, > apartment houses, places of business or amusement, any > neighborhood, or any premises which are open to the public. > > ``` > Cross References. Section 5503 is referred to in sections > 3573, 8902 of Title 42 (Judiciary and Judicial Procedure). > > ``` This doesn’t appear to rise to the level of [simple assault](http://law.onecle.com/pennsylvania/crimes-and-offenses/00.027.001.000.html): > [@](#): > > § 2701. Simple assault. > (a) Offense defined.–A person is guilty of assault if he: > (1) attempts to cause or intentionally, knowingly or > recklessly causes bodily injury to another; > (2) negligently causes bodily injury to another with a > deadly weapon; > (3) attempts by physical menace to put another in fear > of imminent serious bodily injury; or > (4) conceals or attempts to conceal a hypodermic needle > on his person and intentionally or knowingly penetrates a law > enforcement officer or an officer or an employee of a > correctional institution, county jail or prison, detention > facility or mental hospital during the course of an arrest or > any search of the person. > (b) Grading.–Simple assault is a misdemeanor of the second > degree unless committed: > (1) in a fight or scuffle entered into by mutual > consent, in which case it is a misdemeanor of the third > degree; or > (2) against a child under 12 years of age by an adult 21 > years of age or older, in which case it is a misdemeanor of > the first degree. > (Dec. 19, 1988, P.L.1275, No.158, eff. 60 days; June 22, 2001, > P.L.605, No.48, eff. 60 days; Dec. 9, 2002, P.L.1391, No.172, > eff. 60 days) [Here’s a whole page](http://www.pameganslaw.state.pa.us/CrimeCode.aspx?dt=HCFMCFDDM4ENEGNFF4da)of stuff about sex crime laws from PA. Pantsing doesn’t seem to meet the definition of sexual assault or indecent assault. BTW, these are what are called “cites.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/173 "2009-04-29T17:19:50Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > How are you to prove consent/lack of consent when a particular practice is the norm? “The norm?” Where is it the norm? In any case, it’s a question for a prosecutor, not the school. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/174 "2009-04-29T17:21:07Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > To answer your question about what if you did this at the mall… > > I live in PA, so I’ll go with our laws. > > Probably I’d get charged with [disorderly conduct.](http://law.onecle.com/pennsylvania/crimes-and-offenses/00.055.003.000.html) > > This doesn’t appear to rise to the level of [simple assault](http://law.onecle.com/pennsylvania/crimes-and-offenses/00.027.001.000.html): > [Here’s a whole page](http://www.pameganslaw.state.pa.us/CrimeCode.aspx?dt=HCFMCFDDM4ENEGNFF4da)of stuff about sex crime laws from PA. Pantsing doesn’t seem to meet the definition of sexual assault or indecent assault. > > BTW, these are what are called “cites.” Rip the bathing suit off a teenage girl at beach. See what happens. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/175 "2009-04-29T17:22:36Z")
Clearly, you have nothing to back up your opinions, so why not just bow out gracefully? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/176 "2009-04-29T17:23:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > “The norm?” Where is it the norm? As several people have noted, pranking people by giving a tug at too-loose-pants is something that happens regularly, every day, at every school, across the country. If the pants actually fall, they’re back up within a few seconds, everyone gets a little giggle, and the matter is done with and forgotten. You might as well prosecute noogies as aggravated assault. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/177 "2009-04-29T17:23:18Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Are you saying it is a strawman for me to say that your position implies that we would be better off either with no such system or a different one? Bingo. That’s exactly what I’m saying. I never once said that we need a different legal system. Not once. I never mentioned it, not in this thread, or probably in any other (that I can remember off the top of my head). Never said it. And yet you insist that I defend that position. I will not, because it never was my position. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/178 "2009-04-29T17:25:14Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’m not arguing that it’s a crime in one place and not another. I’m arguing that this alarmist “Won’t someone think of the children?!?” rhetoric is dumb. > > Upthread someone mentioned that driving 2 mph over the speed limit is just as illegal as driving 50 mph over. Just so. But arguing that going 2 mph over is recklessly dangerous, puts innocent little children at risk, and these menaces to society should be locked up forever is worthy of little more than a rolleyes. What you apparently refuse to acknowledge is that few if any of the people arguing in support of more severe discipline are making statements anywhere near as hysterical as yours. IMO it is you who are recharacterizing into absurd terms the position with which you disagree, and then arguing that your rephrasing of their position is “dumb.” I am disagreeing with your rephrasing. I do not believe the majority of people holding a different view from yours have come close to the extreme hyperbole you have attributed to them. Instead, I believe the question is who ought to make the call as to the appropriate response. IMO, there was a quite reasonable observation a page or 2 ago, where someone observed that the school could - and ought to - notify the authorities, whereupon the athorities could deterine how to proceed from there. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/179 "2009-04-29T17:25:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Rip the bathing suit off a teenage girl at beach. See what happens. Well, at least you’ve moved from the mall to the beach. You should have done that yesterday. The weather was nicer. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644/180 "2009-04-29T17:27:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How would the assailant know until after he did it? If she happens to be wearing underwear, that’s just a luck of the draw for him. It doesn’t really alter the act. Why should penalties be dependent on variables the offenders have no knowledge or control of? I’m not sure about round your way, but over here we tend to assume that people wear underwear. It is unusual, especially at school, for someone not to. Hell, not wearing underwear may even by against the dress code. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Already asked and answered on my part. The answer is yes. I posted before I saw that there were more pages to the thread. I disagree with you in that I think most would have another opinion, but frankly we don’t need this thread to go off on another tangent so I’ll let it go. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-a-school-deal-with-pantsing/494644.md?page=10)