# How should Clinton press the debate advantage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 28, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099 "2016-09-28T01:58:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/21 "2016-09-29T00:04:44Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > But was the loan $1 million, or $14 million? From [here](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2016/sep/27/trump-clinton-first-debate-fact-checks/)… > [@](#): > > The “very small loan” Trump was referring to was $1 million from Trump’s father, Fred, to finance his Grand Hyatt hotel in 1978. (At this point, Donald Trump was already president of his father’s real estate company.) But Fred Trump made out many other loans to his son until his death in 1999, including a $70 million construction loan for the Grand Hyatt and a $3.5 million casino chip loan to bail out Trump’s struggling gaming empire, the Washington Post Fact-Checker reported. I think the $14 million refers to a casino license filing made by Trump that said he owed his dad $14 million. The $70 million loan is news to me and is in no sense “small”. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/22 "2016-09-29T00:48:06Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > She should suggest they schedule four more debates. Heh. That would do it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/23 "2016-09-29T01:44:46Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > Trump complained earlier that the debates were scheduled at the same time as football games. Seems like he shouldn’t have complained. Given the ratings, the NFL should be complaining. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/24 "2016-09-29T01:47:52Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > She should squeeze all the blood out of this one. Trump voters don’t like people taking advantage of they system and not paying their fair share. Paint Trump as a freeloader. You paid his taxes for him. Here is an idea for a good ad. We’re in the dining room of a white family (to attack his base.) There are an analytically determined number of small, cute kids. The mother is serving dinner, with help from the father. Cut to them outside the house. “We work hard, both of us, putting food on the table for our family. And we pay our taxes. We’re glad to for all the things this great country has done for us.” Other parent: “I just don’t understand why someone with so much thinks it is smart to make people like us pay more to make up for him. Doesn’t seem patriotic to me.” ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/25 "2016-09-29T02:02:02Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > How should Clinton press the debate advantage? > > She is getting some attention now, finally … maybe she can talk a bit more about her positive vision for America’s future, her priorities, and her plans. > > I am voting for her and have always seen a lot to vote for. Last night helped cement why Trump is someone to vote against. But some others need to get a better idea of why to vote FOR HER. > > Will she play that hand? Or should she keep the pressure on why not Trump? What debate advantage? I didn’t hear anything new. It was the same ol’ thing from both sides. Did Hillary actually overcome any of the reasons why voters don’t like her? Did she actually convince any 3rd party voters to vote for her? I wonder what the new polls will show? Will Trump’s numbers go up? Will Hillary’s numbers go up? Only 40 some days left until we can start arguing about the 2020 candidates. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/26 "2016-09-29T02:08:47Z")
She was winning. She is winning. She will be winning. She will win. She will have won. This was also true a year ago. Nothing has changed. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/27 "2016-09-29T03:27:10Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > What debate advantage? I didn’t hear anything new. It was the same ol’ thing from both sides. > > Did Hillary actually overcome any of the reasons why voters don’t like her? Did she actually convince any 3rd party voters to vote for her? Well there was little of substance because most of it was watching Trump crash a series of cars in slow-motion. But perceptions of the candidates likely shifted, and that’s important. The right-wing likes to paint Hillary as robotic and part of an elite, out of touch with “real” americans. But she managed to seem affable, while remaining statesmanlike, and the couple mentions of her father will be something many americans can relate to. Trump lost his composure when it was really the #1 thing he had to avoid doing. He tacitly conceded he didn’t pay tax and doesn’t pay workers sometimes. He dealt with the birther and tax return questions awfully, in both cases repeating an excuse that makes no sense in light of what the moderator had just said. The mentions of rosie o donnell and hannity were particularly strange self-inflicted wounds as he brought them up himself. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/28 "2016-09-29T03:47:37Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Well there was little of substance because… > > …Trump lost his composure when it was really the #1 thing he had to avoid doing. He tacitly conceded he didn’t pay tax and doesn’t pay workers sometimes. He dealt with the birther and tax return questions awfully, in both cases repeating an excuse that makes no sense in light of what the moderator had just said. > The mentions of rosie o donnell and hannity were particularly strange self-inflicted wounds as he brought them up himself. (underline added) Who told you that Trump “had” to avoid losing his composure? MSNBC? Someone on the internet? Trump didn’t say he didn’t pay taxes. Hillary implied that Trump didn’t pay taxes. Trump replied that that would be smart. I would love it if I didn’t have to pay taxes. But that ain’t gonna happen. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. You seem to think that Hillary did well and Trump failed to impress. I’m going to wait for the results of the polling that began after the 1st debate. Personally, I didn’t see anything new, or anything that would cause any voters to change their minds about these campaigns. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/29 "2016-09-29T03:53:16Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (underline added) > > Who told you that Trump “had” to avoid losing his composure? MSNBC? Someone on the internet? > > Trump didn’t say he didn’t pay taxes. Hillary implied that Trump didn’t pay taxes. Trump replied that that would be smart. I would love it if I didn’t have to pay taxes. But that ain’t gonna happen. > > Everyone is entitled to an opinion. You seem to think that Hillary did well and Trump failed to impress. I’m going to wait for the results of the polling that began after the 1st debate. Personally, I didn’t see anything new, or anything that would cause any voters to change their minds about these campaigns. [She stated](http://www.snopes.com/trump-taxes-smart/) that returns released for his casino license showed he paid no federal tax. > [@](#): > > Or maybe he doesn’t want the American people, all of you watching tonight, to know that he’s paid nothing in federal taxes, because the only years that anybody’s ever seen were a couple of years **when he had to turn them over to state authorities when he was trying to get a casino license, and they showed he didn’t pay any federal income tax.** > > TRUMP: That makes me smart. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/30 "2016-09-29T04:21:50Z")
Only a fool would pay more in taxes than they are mandated to. Trump is smart to structure his business for his benefit. It’s not smart to engage Clinton on that subject in a debate setting. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/31 "2016-09-29T05:30:41Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > What debate advantage? I didn’t hear anything new. It was the same ol’ thing from both sides. > > Did Hillary actually overcome any of the reasons why voters don’t like her? Did she actually convince any 3rd party voters to vote for her? > > I wonder what the new polls will show? Will Trump’s numbers go up? Will Hillary’s numbers go up? Only 40 some days left until we can start arguing about the 2020 candidates. 😃 If it makes you happy … assuming that the polling science designed polls stating that Clinton was judged as “having won” are correct, that what most of us believe we saw is correct, and polls over the next several days, taken after the debate, demonstrate a rise in her aggregated advantage with a bump of somewhere between 2 to 5 points in those new polls, how should she press that advantage? … Hypothetically of course. I would say that if somehow after what the rest of us thought we saw Trump pulls even or ahead then it would be time for him to press his debate advantage. Of course it would be an odd place to be … “See, polling science doesn’t know what it’s doing! Which we know because the polls say the polls were wrong!” ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/32 "2016-09-29T05:46:16Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Trump didn’t say he didn’t pay taxes. Hillary implied that Trump didn’t pay taxes. Trump replied that that would be smart. I would love it if I didn’t have to pay taxes. But that ain’t gonna happen. As **running coach** above has pointed out, actually the line is “That makes me smart”. He then doubles down on it a moment later when Hillary says he didn’t contribute anything towards American infrastructure by saying “It would be squandered”. And what about the other things I listed? None of this looked bad to you? > [@octopus](#): > > octopus Only a fool would pay more in taxes than they are mandated to. Trump is smart to structure his business for his benefit. It’s not smart to engage Clinton on that subject in a debate setting. Agree he shouldn’t be trying to do it in a debate setting, especially when it was brought up in the context of him hiding his tax returns for that reason, and he more or less owned up to it. But regardless, it’s damaging however it came up. Sure you don’t have to pay more than you have to by definition. But if he were a good person he might have tried to draw attention to the loopholes, lobbied for more progressive taxes or donated to charity; many of the super rich have done all of these things. Just having your nose in the trough I guess doesn’t make you a bad person but it sure as hell doesn’t look good. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/33 "2016-09-29T06:45:41Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Only a fool would pay more in taxes than they are mandated to. Trump is smart to structure his business for his benefit. It’s not smart to engage Clinton on that subject in a debate setting. So J K Rowling is a fool because she stay’s domiciled in the UK and refuses to take advantage of tax loopholes like other billionaires do? You also think James Dyson, billionaire investor is also a fool because he pays his taxes? > **[The billionaires who do pay their bills, including James Dyson and JK](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-billionaires-who-do-pay-their-bills-including-james-dyson-and-jk-rowling-7873607.html)** > >   There are things which are legal but morally repugnant, and using loopholes to pay zero tax when you’re a billionaire makes you a morally repugnant scumbag and a parasite. He personally, and his companies all benefit from using public infrastructure, roads etc, but he refuses to pay his share and worse than that, his companies have benefited from handouts from the government, so he’s a welfare queen! For a politician, it’s even worse than for a businessman to be proud of paying zero tax and we expect far higher public scrutiny of them including releasing their tax returns. Another article with more celebs who make a moral point to pay their taxes, you think they’re all fools Octopus? > **[The rich people who say they are happy to pay their taxes](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31517383)** > > What drives affluent individuals who could reduce their bills from the taxman, but choose not to? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/34 "2016-09-29T08:56:50Z")
He could have mitigated the optics of the statement by saying something like “sure, I used the laws to the best of my abilities, but I want to close those loopholes so we all pay our fair share, just like your liberal rich friends want to increase everyone’s taxes, including their own, but in the meantime you better believe they also take advantage of every tax benefit they can.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/35 "2016-09-29T12:32:30Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I wonder what the new polls will show? Will Trump’s numbers go up? Will Hillary’s numbers go up? Only 40 some days left until we can start arguing about the 2020 candidates. 😃 They’re already showing that Hillary’s numbers have gone up. 10 point increase on 538’s “polls-only” chances in just a few days, and likely to keep rising. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/36 "2016-09-29T12:47:02Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > He could have mitigated the optics of the statement by saying something like “sure, I used the laws to the best of my abilities, but I want to close those loopholes so we all pay our fair share, just like your liberal rich friends want to increase everyone’s taxes, including their own, but in the meantime you better believe they also take advantage of every tax benefit they can.” Or, ask her if there were any tax deductions she was eligible for that she opted not to take. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/37 "2016-09-29T13:05:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Or, ask her if there were any tax deductions she was eligible for that she opted not to take. Which is almost certainly the case, as the Clintons paid an effective tax rate of something like 35% on their last return. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/38 "2016-09-29T13:06:55Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > Mentioning his father’s loan was one good way to do it. (But was the loan $1 million, or $14 million?) Let’s put it this way: in 1978, being a millionaire was still a big deal. It meant you never had to work again unless you felt the urge. You could invest that $1M in bonds at 5%, which would have been $50K/year, which was upper middle class money back then, probably a few multiples of the median income. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/39 "2016-09-29T13:09:49Z")
Seriously ignore the 6 point shift Clintonward on Rasmussen’s 4-way this morning. For the purpose of this thread you can consider her debate advantage merely being the obvious shift in the news cycle narratives. It is clearly for this week off her negatives, on her looking strong/confident/powerful and on a variety of Trump’s negatives. Even before polls come out that alone can count as her “debate advantage” - how best to leverage it is the question. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099/40 "2016-09-29T13:17:20Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Ding ding ding. > > Let her stay above it all. She sells a positive vision and let her surrogates - Biden, Obama, Warren, Kaine et al. keep poking at Trump to provoke him. See if he blows his top. And as she sells that positive vision, she needs to drive home the point that her supporters need to win control of Congress for the Dems if they want that vision to be realized. Even if she’s comfortably ahead, reminding her followers that the Senate’s still up for grabs, and we’re still a ways from winning the House, will give some urgency to the race for her supporters that would otherwise be lacking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-clinton-press-the-debate-advantage/767099.md?page=3)